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Conversation with Sebestian Ong

Sebestian is a digital and social marketer and strategist as well as a LinkedIn expert who I’ve been getting a bunch of great nuggets of information via his LinkedIn posts and interactions.

We met on Clubhouse about a week or so ago, but his insight on marketing strategies really made me realise how I could better my efforts to help my business. We set this conversation up after talking on LinkedIn about podcasting and Descript.

In this conversation, we talk about a wide variety of topics, everything from security, privacy, marketing, LinkedIn and Clubhouse strategies and a whole lot more!

You’ll find Sebesian on LinkedIn and links to his work on his bio page.

NOTE: Sorry about the bells from Sebestian’s mic, they’ll stop at around the 8 minutes mark but I’ve cut out as much as I can. Also, I put on my headphones at around the 18-minute mark due to some audio feedback and strange-sounding audio.


Transcript

Kia Kamgar: Well,

I've just had a fantastic first it's the first conversation I'm calling it The Conversation with Sebastian, Sebastian Ong who I actually met on Clubhouse. And then we connected on LinkedIn and I've been getting so much insight from him and I really wanted to speak with him. And the reason why he's the first actually is because we were having conversation on LinkedIn about podcasting and Descript and everything.

And I thought, Hey, why not get on because I actually want to do this. And the conversation just finished. It's about two hours long. I'm not going to cut any of it, uh, warts and all, or and I want to try this new style format. And my plan is to basically make one every week. So firstly, if you're interested, let me know my contact details on the website, you'll find them and let me know what you think about the conversation and hopefully it'll help you out.

Here's the video.

Sebestian Ong: Hi. Kia,

Kia Kamgar: Hey how you doing? Again, the whole point of this is literally a conversation, as I said to you, I get so many, I talk to so many people like you do. And as you know, when we talk, we have so many pieces of nuggets of information that we lose. And

Sebestian Ong: Why do you say lose?

Kia Kamgar: Lose in the sense that you can repeat it, but the cadence isn't there.

The, the, the, the, the way that we speak isn't there and podcasting is great. I get it. But I found that podcasting is, to make too much of a show it turns into a radio station. I mean, I met you on Clubhouse. A lot of people on Clubhouse had such booming voices. They're showman. Exactly right.

Sebestian Ong:  American rooms.

Kia Kamgar: Right. There you go. Exactly. And I found that a lot. In fact, I've stopped using Clubhouse now. And the main reason was the security of it. More than anything, the privacy of it, not the security of it, but the privacy of it, I went to a client and, uh, as I said, I'm using it as a well known client of mine.

He's actually a famous guy here in Holland. And he said uh, I said I was using Clubhouse because I invited him and he goes, yeah, I know. I see every room you that you're going in. I'm like, I don't really want you to know what room I'm in, that's not. Not that I'm meant going into any weird rooms. I don't have anything to hide.

Like the privacy thing. Everyone's like, I don't have anything to hide, so I don't care if they see it. Well, actually you should care. You should care because it's not right. It's just absolutely not. Right. So I, I deleted off my phone while I was with him when he said it, I deleted it because it's, I'm not worried of the security part, because anything we say on there is open it's stuff that we would type in, uh, uh, LinkedIn or whatever, you know, but I just had this icky feeling about, do you really need to know what rooms I'm in?

You know, I'm Iranian, I'm Persian. I went into some Persian rooms. Now it doesn't matter. I don't care, but he doesn't need to know, you know, that kind of thing. So I deleted it. I completely did.

Sebestian Ong:  Let me ask you some provoking provoking provoke provocating questions.

Kia Kamgar:  Go for it

Sebestian Ong:  do you use Google Search?

Kia Kamgar: No

Sebestian Ong: WhatsApp

Kia Kamgar:  no

Sebestian Ong: Instagram

Kia Kamgar: no

Sebestian Ong: Facebook

Kia Kamgar: nope

I'm very privacy conscious. Very, I don't use any of those products.

Sebestian Ong: Wow, ok, you're quite safe then!

Kia Kamgar: I really don't. I mean, I'm like when I work with my clients, I make sure that I choose the tools. The I trust. So when I'm, you know, I'm a coach consultant. So when I, you know, so if they say, what tools should I use, I really think about what they need.

And then think about the privacy side of it for me, and then explain to them, you have this and you have this. I personally prefer this, but this is not a bad tool. It's just, Google is behind it. Facebook is behind it. Amazon is behind it, whatever. I mean, we're all using Amazon, to be honest, we really are

Sebestian Ong: More than you know!

Kia Kamgar: More than usual

yeah. More than we know. So that isn't really too much of a, uh, it's not much you can do, but yeah,

Sebestian Ong: but that's where I come from. Exactly where I come from.

Kia Kamgar: Right

Sebestian Ong: I always preach this sorry I'm, interrupting you, but I always preach this social media is a platform. Algorithm is a manmade tool. Yes. It learns.

And it's capable of what one human brain is capable of, but it just takes the willingness to learn. Like I'm always advocating, curate your feed, curate your feed. Clean up your, your, your hashtags clean up your, your groups, clean up your followers, go and not just complain there and go like, Oh, I've got nothing in my feed.

It's the same people. It's just, shouldn't use this information. And like, yeah, you're not doing anything about it. You let it, you let me sitting in the backyard, watching the grass grow and say like, Oh, I've got weeds. Oh, I've got weeds. Then you do nothing about it. Yeah.

Kia Kamgar: I, I totally agree

Sebestian Ong: any my friends complain, why are you on Facebook so much?

Why isn't it on Instagram so much? Why are you on, on, on dumb you're in Clubhouse? Yeah, and I was like, well, do you want to compare? Let's grab your face. We're going to take it out and we'll see your face where my Facebook, it's just a difference

Kia Kamgar: yes

Sebestian Ong:  look into my YouTube history. For example, you see, I have nothing, but the likes of Andrew Huberman in Brown, it's all about growth and, and, and, and, and self-awareness, and then you look at my, my partner's Facebook and it's like Saturday night live and who's roasting who I'm like,

yeah, I don't touch my phone because I don't want that to come into my algorithm at all. I'm very protective of the sensor on my thing. Because like those screw up

Kia Kamgar: that's really interesting. I mean, I'm talking about Google and YouTube. YouTube is actually the only Google product I use, but I use it on Google browser Chrome, nothing else

I don't use it anywhere else. If I go onto a Facebook, Instagram, Google page on Safari, I make sure I clear anything before I carry on

Sebestian Ong: technically they can't reach into what you have and when you have previously browsed browser, but the thing is, unless you are going through a deeper advanced setting off the Google Chrome itself and you de-select some stuff

Kia Kamgar: yes,

Sebestian Ong: there's a high chance most of the stuff that you're sending is actually being sent to Google aswel

Kia Kamgar: Absolutely. Within Google. Yeah. But if I'm for instance using as I said, Safari, and then I, someone puts a link and it's a Google doc, so obviously it opens in Google. So I didn't know it was a Google doc, so I open it up and Google, now Google is infested in to my right

so what I do is I stop working. I closed the, I copy paste it and then go into Chrome and open it and then completely wipe everything, uh, reset my Safari with all the cookies and all that or everything. So it, it's not there. So kind of sandbox, it's a manual sandbox

Sebestian Ong: it's a very manual step though

Kia Kamgar: it is. But I don't mind doing that because it's very rare that I go onto any of these kind of like if someone sends me an Instagram, I definitely don't open it in Safari

I open it in Chrome because I don't care. Right. Yep. Or I go to a Brave, open a tor and have a look at it and stuff like that. So I'm not, I'm not one of these people that wear tin, tin foil hats or anything. It's just, I want to protect my privacy. I, and it's more to do with, they have too much power and that power has come from us and they're chipping away at our privacy bit by bit.

And I don't like it. I mean, it's pure and simple. I just don't like it. So I'd rather them not have anything or only a tiniest amount that they can.

But going back to Clubhouse because we met on Clubhouse. Right. And I just liked the things that you were saying. And then when we connected on LinkedIn, I was like, this dude knows a few things...

let me just find out. because you do a lot of LinkedIn stuff as well

Sebestian Ong: only recently when I got clearance from the office, then I could actually, I have to read actually I had to redo everything because before that you see when you corporate branded stuff

Kia Kamgar:  Right

Sebestian Ong:  and now I managed to get compliance and clearance

so what I can do now is actually personally brand all my own stuff. Therefore you're seeing things that LinkedIn shares, because that way I can then say, look, this is not representative representative of the company brand and the corporate brand. And so nothing to do with that. My person representation and my personal and ideas

it's compromise. You have to make, because if you want to do personal branding and corporate branding on your same profile, be able to do anyways. It's just that until now, there's no way to be able to really clear fine line between corporate and social and personal. Rather it's coming. It's coming, coming

it's it's, it's a lot of pain on three, a lot of things because in a corporate world, I don't have to show my face. I'm never heard. I'm the I'm you see all my posts, you see all the senior leader teams, all the posts, everything for me, it's just shit in between internally and then it's pushed outwards

it's all me, me, me, me, but then I don't have to put my face behind it

Kia Kamgar: yeah. Yep, yep, yep. Yep

Sebestian Ong: and now I have my face behind it, which was so painful, which is why I pushed myself to do this this, this video thing. Right

Kia Kamgar: really? Why is that though? Is that it's kind of interesting. Because I'm the other way. I hate writing

I'm useless at writing, but I love talking and you know, I look okay on camera. So I went with video

Sebestian Ong: I love talking to, but I don't look okay on the camera.

Kia Kamgar: Oh my, god. Dammit.

Sebestian Ong: No, I know. I know. You know, it's just, I never had to show my face. I'm always the marketing guy and I have to put my face behind. Is that okay?

You want to do it go all the way out. So even my little logo on the compounder, personal branding is my face. But with you call. It's my face, plastered everywhere. I mean, it's the best way to get over something if you're afraid of something

Kia Kamgar: Right? Yeah. Okay. Well, it's interesting. Because like my company, MacJunky and I mean, I've been doing MacJunky as a company for 14 years.

And for the past three years I was like, you know, I go to my personal brand, I go back to MacJunky. I go in and I was going backwards and forwards. And obviously, you know, that's not a good thing. Right. So nothing was happening for obvious reasons. But I had, I have 6,000 clients, so people were always, I didn't need to new clients because old clients were coming to me.

So doing that crisscross was annoying for me and new users, but I still had clients. It wasn't a huge deal. Right. So, but it's still something that you shouldn't do. As soon as I went, okay, listen, it's gotta be a hard switch to personal brand. And I did this in the

Sebestian Ong: Why?

Kia Kamgar: Past few months. I love it. I absolutely love it.

And the reason I like it because I never wanted a scale, I never wanted to sell. I never wanted to do any of that. So that's the first step you got to understand for yourself. And I, and I've always been like that. I had companies in the past and it's just me basically. Although. One company. I had seven people working for me and I hated every minute of it.

I really hated it. So when I moved to Amsterdam, I was like, let me start it again. MacJunky new named blah, blah, blah. And it worked. It was great. But nowadays people like to deal with people, not necessarily companies and depending on what you're trying to look for. And I found in the past few years, specifically, personal branding is a big thing, especially with social media and stuff, but you've got to do it right.

You got to do it kind of. Right. And so it was annoying for me to kill my baby. Right. Uh, in a way. And the name MacJunky stuck because I am the MacJunky the company, wasn't the MacJunky. I was MacJunky. So I still use that name now. And again, when I'm working with Mac clients, if they say, you know what I mean?

So yeah, I'm the MacJunky. What do you want? You know, uh, kind of thing. But the fact that I moved over to the personal brand has helped me in the sense that I can do anything I want, I can do this. This has nothing to do with Apple, nothing to do with Mac, nothing to do with anything other than tech, two guys talking over a beer.

Unfortunately I don't have one, but you know, just

I have some wine somewhere.

Yeah. Have something somewhere. So, yeah. And the fact that I can do this kind of stuff and people benefit from it. Yeah. It's amazing. And that's a personal brand. Now, could I have a personal brand next to my MacJunky brand?

Absolutely. You can't, you can do it. It is possible. But then you kind of diluting what you're trying to explain and say. So I'd rather be known as the guy who is the MacJunky rather than the guy that works for MacJunky. Right? That's my, that's my, my thought process. And, you know, moving over to the company brand, I can wear hats like this.

It doesn't matter. Right. I can shave my head. I can do whatever, because the work is important and I have plenty of reviews and stuff. People see my work and I'm constantly getting work. So that's not too much of a problem. It depends on who your target market is. I'm not going to do this if I'm talking to a suit, obviously.

But but yeah, the personal brand thing was a hard to move, but I'm glad I made it.

Sebestian Ong: How painful was it for you?

Kia Kamgar: The only pain was, I didn't want to kill MacJunky. That was the only pain

Sebestian Ong: Just retire it for the moment. You don't have to kill it necessarily.

Kia Kamgar: No, of course, of course. But that was the only pain that wasn't a pain in the sense of moving it.

I was, I'm doing kind of the same thing. It's in fact, opened new doors. I've had more conversations like this because people don't see me as the Mac guy. They don't see me as the MacJunky. They see me as me who is the MacJunky you know, like I said, so that's kind of different. I had to change all my LinkedIn and everything.

That was funny.

Sebestian Ong: I can imagine

Kia Kamgar: That was interesting. But no, that, that wasn't really pain. I can't think of anything.

Sebestian Ong: I think you see no pain in it because of the fact that you actually find a relief that now, you just have to be your own brand and you just be yourself.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah. You could be right. You could be going

You

Sebestian Ong: don't have to play two roles anymore.

You have to be, when do I put on my, MacJunky hat? When do I put on my me hat? Yeah. And how much of me is me and how much I MacJunky is me and how much of me is MacJunky? So it is confusing. I can see why it's more of a relief for you. And that's why it's physically manifesting the fact that you're actually wearing a beanie in her call because you don't care because you are you

Kia Kamgar: But the funny thing is like, we've always been like this, even with MacJunky, it's always been me.

So I guess that's kind of helped, like you said, it's kind of helped me move because I don't have to think about it. So that's kind of interesting. That's interesting. But how about you though? What did, was it difficult for you to show your face and with what you were saying?

Sebestian Ong: Yes,

Kia Kamgar: Really? Interesting.

Sebestian Ong: Because I make a lot of switches in my life.

So I started very young and my first job at officially 18 unofficially 14 I worked my way out to university. And what I did learn was that you can either work for people fixed salary, or you set up your own company,

Kia Kamgar: Right.

Sebestian Ong: And set your own salary.

Kia Kamgar: Right.

Sebestian Ong: So at 16 I started dabbling into my own companies and stuff like that.

The first company I had was selling lease lines. That was I'm that old, I'm that old and domain names in the, in the days. And then before I came to Zurich itself, I was actually the last company I was running. It was pretty successful, was actually a fitness company. So we were wonderful fitness provider that won a tender.

And we provide all the schools with fitness programs. That's actually happening in a gym, certain level of stuff, but put into the school. So it's not only just football, basketball, tennis, and stuff like that. It's real, real fitness stuff. And then they came here and they had to start from scratch all over again.

Kia Kamgar: Right.

Sebestian Ong: So I've always represented myself because I've always done my own businesses and stuff like that. So I have to go out and push sales, I've grown and pushed marketing and stuff. But two, when I came up with this, I made it very clear. I want to join a big company because I'm tied off. My partner is complaining.

Like, you know, you're never working. You're never not working. Always. You know how that goes? I

Kia Kamgar: Definitely,

Sebestian Ong: You're never on holidays. You're always in your phone and

Kia Kamgar: Right.

Sebestian Ong: So I joined so I remarket it rebranded myself. I retrained myself all over again in 2018, started off my first marketing job. And as, uh, as an intern in a med tech firm was given six months to prove myself at about fate plus on that intern pay a real intern pay.

Kia Kamgar: Wow.

Sebestian Ong: Got a contract out of it. Pushed the entire company on to LinkedIn with a B2B social selling strategy and stuff like that. Shortly after that got into a very big, big institution where I'm in and I'm doing global social media and specialists finding out clients where they are, how to use thinking campaigns to really target the clients and stuff like that.

Which is amazing. I mean, when you have a budget that

Kia Kamgar: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Sebestian Ong: Yeah. In a startup world, you know, as I understand it, we have to beg for a budget marketing updates. And the last thing you get when you present to venture capitalists and stuff, and this one was like, you'd come in and like, no, look, this is a much what, I'm sorry, you're putting too much zeros, but I mean like.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sebestian Ong: So, so, so it's a big difference that With big budgets comes great responsibility. So there's cuttings that you have to learn. So I managed to cut our cost per lead by 68%.

Kia Kamgar: Wow.

Sebestian Ong: Yes.

Kia Kamgar: That's pretty big. That's a massive one!?

Sebestian Ong: That's the power of LinkedIn.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah. You know, LinkedIn, I mean, I have like a love, hate relationship with LinkedIn.

Sebestian Ong: We all do.

Kia Kamgar: Oh man.

There's so much crap on LinkedIn. Now. And I tell you what the problem, I think it is. It's a good thing. And it's a double-edged sword. It's a good thing. And it's a bad thing at the same time. The good thing is, it's great. I see this extra content. However, the bad thing is I see everything. Like if you, like... if you like something, I have to see it.

That's annoying, if...

Sebestian Ong: not any more

Kia Kamgar: you comment on something, I have to see it. Well,

If they create a mode, you don't have to see that anymore. You only see the major post that the person posts. And very little, much of the engagement, maybe a comment or two, but not the liking and other stuff

I got, I've got to check this out properly and set it up because one of the posts that you put in, I was like, yeah, of course, of course you can do that.

Then you kind of like, you just brought it back into my mind, which is the hashtags follow a hashtag such a simple thing. And we know this because pretty much, I mean, Twitter does it and stuff. So I was like, yeah, of course LinkedIn does it. So because I pretty much I've started to for past couple of weeks, you know, #techminimalism, which kind of interesting.

But it's only me posting on it, which is kind of cool in a way

That's the whole point of it, you want to have, you want to have even to establish thought leadership in it first. Right? So like the last med-tech company I did this, so there's two kinds of hashtags, not the MNA hashtag expert. It says that I've read this article because I have to prove this proof of concept of this idea I have in my head of how you take a long form content to bring it down to multiple pieces.

So you don't have to do so much work.

Right?

It's this concept of a half and I want to prove it. So I'm knocking my head around and trying to see what, what doesn't work and what work and hashtags on the main thing. One main thing about it because being the big companies, you get to have a customer success manager.

Yeah,

Sebestian Ong: From LinkedIn itself. And one of the things I've learned and pick up very quickly was that hashtag is going to be bigger in the future because that's the way you're going to catalog every single piece of their content.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah, yeah.

Sebestian Ong: What from LinkedIn, but you know, what, what from LinkedIn is like, you know, we can say this today.

Kia Kamgar: Something it might change. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: All together. So, but it does make sense because how hashtags came about was the fact that it was used to categorize and catalog stuff.

Kia Kamgar: Right.

Sebestian Ong: That's how it came about. So it makes sense that it's going to get bigger and get you guys seeing more things now in the hashtags and stuff like that.

You see hashtags and comment comments, which I think for the first few ones, you actually do it because people, but it's not sociable. Why are you putting in there?

Kia Kamgar: Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: And then now it's coming out. So it's all coming together. But the main thing is I'm touching on a lot of topics. That's like, duh, we know that.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: Why are you bothering, why you bought saying that? Because the whole point of LinkedIn Seb is that I want to take people with me on this journey of starting up from nothing. I mean, I'm a digital marketer. I could do all of this overnight. I'm going to do it. Step-by-step I'm going to share it along every single step of the way.

I mean, not the secret sauce. Of course.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: But the major part of it that's enough for you to actually start your own company. So everyone present 70 or corporate page on your own corporate presence and even start posting.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah. Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: This is something that everybody should be able to do.

Kia Kamgar: It's really interesting that.

There's a lot of, I mean, I mean, I'm still amazed at things that people don't know, but that's the whole point of experts like you and I, who actually do know, and that can help people because even in my field doing what I've been doing for the past 30 years, people still asking me about how do you empty the trash bin on your computer?

No joke.

Sebestian Ong: Okay.

Kia Kamgar: That's how I do that. No, it's not automatic. Not, not really unnecessary.

Sebestian Ong: You can set it up though?!

Kia Kamgar: They don't know how to empty it. Do you think they know how to set it up? So the point, my point being, we all know something that the next person doesn't and no. And I've always said that no question is a stupid question, unless you asked me three times.

Sebestian Ong: Good. I like

Kia Kamgar: No question is a stupid question. Unless you asked me three times.

Because now it's like, come on, dude. Seriously. You know? And I used that line a lot for, with my clients. I get annoyed with my clients sometimes, but again, I'm human, uh, et cetera, et cetera. But it's interesting, like, as you said, it's up to us to yeah. Which is what I'm trying to do with this kind of new thing.

Is to pay it forward. I don't get paid until someone hires me. I don't charge for my content. I don't make money on it. I don't ask for donation, nothing. I don't have an email list that I sell to. I've moved it over to HEY and now I've got quite a few people on, HEY, signed up, which is really interesting.

So I just want you to go down this route because that's who I am. But what you were talking about on just a moment ago, actually about making one, uh, making one piece of content and then chopping up, and this is the whole point. This is exactly like I make daily videos as you know, and I love making daily.

I really do, because from the time I get the idea to the time it's published, it's 30 minutes from the idea to the recording, to everything, to publishing. It's 30, 35 minutes, that's it? Because I have the workflow to be able to do it very simple, very easy. I can sit here and do it, but that wasn't enough for me.

I'm like, how can I make this simpler? And this is where I've come up with the idea of what I want to do next. So as long as you can repurpose your. Uh, content, which is the main thing, which is something that I haven't been doing because I make videos every day. Do I need to repurpose it? Well, then this is where Descript comes in.

This is why I wanted to talk to you as well. Becasue you, I had questions about it. So with Descript, I can make this thing. I'm like, dude, this is so fricking easy. That's repurposing. Simply. Put it up there. So yeah, that's one way the other way I want to do it because everyone's been asking and saying your content, I really like it, but it's too short, you know?

So I'm like, listen, I have all these conversations all the fricking time with loads of people. I have another one later on today with somebody who wanted to talk to me from Clubhouse actually. And I'm like, why don't I just record. Now. I have been recording these in the past, but actually you're, you are the first in this setting.

I've got to be honest. It's not a test. I've done this before, but just in this setting. And so I thought, you know what, let me try to do it a different way. How about making one video a day conversation, not podcast, not a video, a conversation, and then repurposing extra throughout the week.

Sebestian Ong: You have our system yet?

Kia Kamgar: The system in a sense of which. Of what?

Sebestian Ong: So I'm developing what I call a one, three, five, seven.

Kia Kamgar: Okay. I, that's not something I do, but I mean like a system now. Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: Sorry. I mean, you do low flow assist nothing by system.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. I mean, in the way of, for the content, like, no,

Sebestian Ong: So I believe that, so this is how I do my filming.

I take 10 minutes of me blabbering on and on in front of two cameras, one of the front side. And I play with that for the whole month.

Kia Kamgar: Y Y Y. Okay.

Go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry.

Sebestian Ong: Because it's time-saving and it gives me all the things I want to push out and my message is clear and in my messages there

Kia Kamgar: No, no.

The reason the re sorry, just to stop you, the reason why is, why multi cameras forget what you're doing, but why?

Sebestian Ong: Because people get bored. The problem with head video, talking head video, and this is shared on by the YouTube, the top YouTube consultant was interviewed on cross social. Yeah.

Kia Kamgar: Uh, I think, uh, Robert Blake, Roberto Blake, I think, or something. Him.

Sebestian Ong: It's a girl. It's a girl.

Kia Kamgar: Sorry. Okay. Okay.

Sebestian Ong: Yep. And she said, but she made it very clear. People get bored. Hmm. Imagine this is the first year of times you're doing it fine. And you get it. But imagine it's a whole year of this, you and your bobbing head in front of the camera and nothing else, you don't move the background.

Doesn't change. You get really bored really after a while you just start looking at it and this is the interest starts. You start looking at it, you only hear it, and then you start hearing it and he's just running in the background. Like, why, why am I, why am I doing this again? Oh yeah.

Kia Kamgar: That that's interesting.

And I had an idea I had that kind of thought is like, well, my videos are executive. Same. They started, started off color and stuff. But now that black and white, but the thing is, they're only like two or three minutes, but each video I make a podcast out of. And a lot of people listen to the podcast and the video fine.

That's okay. But I like making videos. So I'm just going to make videos. Right?

Sebestian Ong: Do you want a million dollar idea here

Kia Kamgar: Go on then. Let me hear that

Sebestian Ong: This is yours, take it. Just remember to pay it forward one day. This is my message here. One day, someone's going to come to you with a business idea. That's going to help change the world or make a difference, make a difference in people's lives.

But you know, he or she doesn't have resources to a mentor or coach and you would step in and share what you can.

Kia Kamgar: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: So this is a million-dollar put out for you. Take this little clips from every day, put together into one digital art piece, put an NFT on it.

Kia Kamgar: I missed the last one, put NFT on it,

Sebestian Ong: Put an FQ on it and put it out in the market. NFT last piece of NFT art was being, so it was a man who did, who promised his 5,000 daily photos of himself doing something.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah. You know, this NFT thing I have been following it.

Sebestian Ong: I stopped.

Kia Kamgar: I exactly right. I've been following it and I don't get it yet.

Get it in the sense of you're. Okay. Here's the, here's the thought process. We're gonna go back to what we were talking about, but here's the thought process with NFTs. NFTs were created by people who love the internet, who are soft hackers. Let's just, you know, uh, internet people, tech guys, et cetera, et cetera,

Sebestian Ong: Security conscious people.

Kia Kamgar: Right. There you go. These are the same people that hated DRM,

But NFT is a form of DRM

Sebestian Ong: Available to the world.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah. But yes, but that's still not the point. The point the, the, the principle of the idea of DRM is exactly the same as what NFT is. I'm going to put this token on this piece of physical art

Sebestian Ong: Or non physical

Kia Kamgar: Or non-physical, but physical art, for instance.

Right. Or non-physical.

But even if it's non-physical you instill copy it like an MP3. So why is someone paying for the non, the nonphysical

Sebestian Ong: Ego?

Kia Kamgar: Yeah, of course. Ego.

I get that.

I completely understand that. And that the money that's going around at the moment is money that's been made through crypto's who had it since 2003 or whatever it was.

Right. That's the only money that's floating around. It's not real money, meaning it's not money that we've made or they've made.

Sebestian Ong: Ok and why?

Kia Kamgar: I just don't understand, I'm probably completely wrong, but I'm trying to get my head around why NFTs should cost so much. And I have one idea because right now it's costing so much. because people, they want people to get into it. They want people to understand it. And I, and I get that, but when it all dies down or when the bubble.

Fizzles, not bursts, but when it fizzles, because these guys who are paying 20 million, 30 million, whatever it is, they're not really losing 30 million. They just, it wasn't theirs to begin with. because was right. So it's not right worth anything. So if you buying an NFT for a grand or two grand, then it makes sense, right?

Three grand, 10 grand, maybe above that, it's gotta be something special. Now this, this goes back to the Wu Tang album when they created the Wu Tang album years ago. And they sold it to one guy and that guy, they don't even have the reels of copies of it. They sold the album to this one guy for a couple of million or something.

That's the original NFT. That's how NFT should work. That makes sense. But if it says for exchange, yeah, it's a physical we'll exchange. But if it, because it's like artwork, I'm making artwork, I'm making a piece of art. I'm sending it to you. You give me X that's the original NFT. That's the, the Gauguin and the, you know, et cetera.

But this whole new digital NFT thing, I I'm not buying it right now. I might, again, I might be wrong, but I'm not buying it.

But going back to these videos I've already been approached by someone who I am working. I'm waiting for him to give the full, go ahead. He said...

I like the videos. I like the way you're doing them.

Can you produce our videos?

And I've known him for a long time. I used to work at the same place as him. And he's now a CEO of a tech company and they've got a new product and they want videos for the new product. And he said...

I liked the way you do the videos. Can you come and do it?

And I'm like...

dude, seriously?!

And I could talk to him normally. And he's like, yeah, no, seriously. I really like it. And I think so I gave him a couple of ideas. He goes, brilliant. Let's do it. Let's go for it. So that helped because of the personal brand.

In a way.

Sebestian Ong: People buy from people

Kia Kamgar: There you go. There you go.

Sebestian Ong: That's the reason, that's the one thing we would see and we'll see people struggling on LinkedIn it's self because for a very long time to always step they've always stood behind brands in Asia itself.

It's always, hi. I am X, Y, Z from this company, from that company. Yep. Even when you present yourself, I'm from this company, my name is . So it shows you their hierarchy and stuff like that. These days even just send it the way you talk. So the way people talk to what's the use. It's very, very interesting for me because it means a lot to me, the words, your choice of words indicates to me your intention, because it's brought on by our consciousness.

Kia Kamgar: Hmm.

Sebestian Ong: That's amazing. So the way you spoke about your personal brand just now was the fact that it's me, this is me and I'm. I want to be, I want to be known as the guy. That was MacJunky once.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: So you really, you really have this separation, that detachment from, from you and the corporate brand itself. And there's a very big, because you were always a corporate guy for that matter.

And then are you even giving you a, tearing it apart and pulling yourself away from it? I mean, there must be a reason for that. There must be a reason for that,

Kia Kamgar: There, there is a reason. And I'll tell you offline. No I'll tell you now to be honest, the clients were annoying me pure and simple, the type of clientele I was getting.

Sebestian Ong: Oh, okay. That makes sense. Yeah.

Kia Kamgar: The type of clientele, uh,

Sebestian Ong: You were calling out to the wrong people.

Kia Kamgar: Right.

It was, it was just getting to a stage where like, you know, I'm 52 now I don't need this anymore. I don't need to do this anymore. I want to slow down. I want to, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And do you know the whole Tech Minimalism thing and stuff.

I've talked about this many times, but it's, it I've always been that even under MacJunky, even before MacJunky, I've always been the simple guy keeping things as simple as possible because I don't see the reason for it, you know, and that spilled over to MacJunky and the website I have now is not that dissimilar.

I've just moved things around to what MacJunky was for the past 10 years, nine years or whatever the website's been, the same things moved, moved and whatever, but, and I've tried different websites and I'm like, nah, let's go back because I wanted the simplicity part of it. So everyone knows me if that my work ethics for Tech Minimalism is exactly who I am.

So nothing has changed. Just the name has changed and, and the kind of the product has changed obviously, but I still do the Mac stuff. I love doing it.

Sebestian Ong: And it bring in different clients for you.

Kia Kamgar: Brings in completely different clients, completely different clients. And I, and you know, I love it. It's kind of cool, but it's, it's interesting because

I love all my clients, as I said, with MacJunky for the past, uh, 14 years, I had round about 6,000 clients and they're repeat clients. They do come back and they call me now and again, and it's more

Sebestian Ong: It is a one man show?

Kia Kamgar: Just me.

Sebestian Ong: How do you even sleep?

Kia Kamgar: This is the interesting thing. I only worked three or four hours a day.

I try not to do more than that. I don't. And I've always said, even in the MacJunky days, like MacJunky started because of a necessity for me, I couldn't find a job. I didn't know the language. I had a company back in the UK with seven people. When I came here, I didn't want to do it again, started the company.

I said, uh, I started it because I needed the money. I just had nothing as if, when I started, I'm going to be just on my own. Because I didn't want the headache of worrying for other people, et cetera, you know? And, uh, so I started it first month was good. Second month was fricking awesome. And it stayed like that for years.

So I started in 2007. And I was bringing in seven, uh, six figures.

Sebestian Ong: So glad you didn't say that in the rooms because I would never just, I would never have connected with you.

Kia Kamgar: No, but like, it's like, yeah, I hate that thing. Like seven figures, man. And eight figure. I mean, what the, who the fuck are you? I hate that.

I really hate that, but we're having a conversation about this and like how well it went because that first month I'm like, Jesus Christ, what the hell what's going on? I couldn't believe it because back then, Holland, even Amsterdam had more Apple people than the whole of Europe put together.

Sebestian Ong: Really?!,

Kia Kamgar: I couldn't believe it.

And I'm like, this ain't going to work. This just simply is not going to work, but, well, this is the only thing I know. Let's try it. So I had my iBook back then my white iBook, I broke it in three different places, software wise and hardware wise, I opened, it, took it to three different shops with the last money I had.

And I said, can you fix it? And some of them said, buy a new computer. Some of them said, no, I'm like, wait a minute. Let me start the company first month. So I would say first month, but it was kind of the second month. Because first month you're testing things out. I was like, dude, this is 15 grand in one month.

What the hell? I couldn't believe it. And that's how MacJunky started and that's what MacJunky is so and that ran for quite a long time. And then, you know, then I got known for something like the repair guy rather than the consultant guy, but I didn't mind because I loved it. I loved, I loved doing it.

I just kinda miss it in a way, but you can't fix these things anymore. So, and I wanted to do something else and I thought, well, what can I do? Well, my work ethic is simplify everything. Seeing these 6,000 clients or whatever. I'm like, none of them have an idea of where their email is and what DNS is and what they don't know how to, they just want it to work.

So my tech. Thing has always been to make the user experience really good for the client, the user the way they connect with me, the way they connect with their computer. And it's always been there, always been there to make things easy for a client, you clicked on a link and ended up here. Right?

I wanted everything. So every tool I use, every way I work, I'm doing it obviously for myself, but how easy is it for the client? How easy is it for the next person? I thought, you know, this could work, hence Tech Minimalism, and that's how it came about.

Sebestian Ong: This would definitely work. And a lot of people might not know this, but this is actually been brought into all parts of design.

Kia Kamgar: Right.

Sebestian Ong: In all the retail spaces. You can imagine. It's just don't know that yet. Yeah. Can you give a very good example, which is, I think there's this company called Wey... Wayfinder or Pathfinder. I think it's the Wayfinder in Singapore. I think, uh, there was not a Singapore company is somewhere out outside of Singapore, but the designs there that contributed to the design of the Singapore tiny airport.

Kia Kamgar: Wow. Okay.

Sebestian Ong: And this is why you could go through the Singapore Shani airport. You can see a blue color sign of any sorts and it was going to lead you to the. Authorities. If you see a yellow sign of any sorts are yellow color labels or yellow color wall, or floor lines on the floor, you know, it's getting you to the bathroom.

Kia Kamgar: Right? Right.

Sebestian Ong: And this is done in such a clear way. You don't even realize it. And you only realize I only realize it because I know the company. I know I have a partner working in there and I only realize it when I stepped out into the car park and I was in the wrong floor. Of course. And then I realized that only when I look at the floor, because I was on my phone is that this line is another red color.

I'm on the wrong floor I'm like, I did not even look up to see which floor I was on or which door I was, the stupid lines on the floor. I'm in the wrong place I need to get out of here.

Kia Kamgar: It's like a subconscious thing. Isn't it? That, that's the thing I like, I love that. I love the idea of visual representation of what it is.

So you're not thinking about it. You're just doing it. I mean that, that's basically, that's, that's basically, I mean, my thing is stop fighting with your tech. If you're fighting with your tech, you're using it wrong, you're doing it wrong. You're doing something wrong.

Sebestian Ong: And this is why cup house is creating such a big difference.

I always say it's a, it might be a bubble, but it's going to be a bubble that made a difference. I'm not trying to suck up my weight in there, but

Kia Kamgar: I do, I do like the idea of Clubhouse. And to be honest, if they took that one feature out, I would use it. Now, the funny thing is Twitter spaces, whatever it's called tweets.

I don't know what it's called. They coming out with that and they tweeted something yesterday. He said something about, would you want to know which room I'm like, no, that's why I left Clubhouse. Please. Don't put it in there because you don't want, I mean, who cares if you want to share it? You know? So, but Clubhouse, the thing is the idea I think is great.

When I first tried it, I was like, this is just talk, right? There's a crap version of talk radio. That's truly what I thought it is when I started using it and going into the right rooms and how getting the right, getting in the right conversations makes sense. But it's like with any social media, I hated Twitter because there was too much crap.

Like you said earlier with LinkedIn, you follow the right people, you follow the right tags, the company, whatever the algorithm will then become your friend complete, make sense with any so Clubhouse after alarm like, Oh, this makes sense. Now I get it. But it's just unfortunate of that. One thing.

Sebestian Ong: Let me share with you my personal idea of security and information.

Kia Kamgar: Go for it.

Sebestian Ong: Yes. I'm a marketer. I need the information. My job depends on that. Without that I have nothing, no one to sell to. I have no one. I can say like this I'll use this. I don't have that. And I need that. And let me tell you, in my perspective, why I think it's good. So this is me. I do not believe in paying it sounds wrong.

Let me try it again.

Because I believe in paying what is fair.

Kia Kamgar: Okay. That's fair enough.

Sebestian Ong: Okay. So let me give you an example. I could buy from the official hardware store or all the things that I need for all the tinkering, stuff like that. You know how hardware stuff

Kia Kamgar: Yep.

Sebestian Ong: I could get any time, any place I can have it delivered to my place on a pellet, which I did before, because I would just send the stuff or I could pay 60% only, but I have to commute it over the next one year and Lidl and Aldi.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I completely, you know, carry on. Sorry.

Sebestian Ong: Now likewise. I want to buy a pair of, I don't know, Christian Louboutin for guys guys or something like that. I dunno. Actually no they don't do it. They don't do this kind of stuff. So I want to pay to buy a new pair of Nike's. All right.

I could go online and buy it. I could go into the shops and buy it, or I could go into WhatsApp and type it. I could go into Facebook and do a search for it, go to Instagram and look for it and maybe float around for a couple of days. And then if it doesn't work, going through my Google mail, Gmail, and then just type it into search there and, you know and you see it that's comes true everywhere every time.

Kia Kamgar: No, that's true. No, that's true.

Sebestian Ong: I search for things. I shouldn't be searching and it comes out. I'm like, Ooh, why is this showing now? What the hell? And, and and, and then I wait, you know, you read a couple of days and then it just, you know, search some more and the discounts get better and better.

And then you click and you bounce out immediately. The first time you click on it, you can bounce it within 30 seconds. Give it a couple of days you bounce out. Within 60 seconds, Within a couple of days scroll to the item that you want.

Kia Kamgar: This is a real life hack you're, you're giving us as well. This is cool.

Sebestian Ong: Get out again. And then you would see it and start getting emails, or you start getting ads in your emails saying like 20% off Adidas shoes or Nike shoes and stuff are certain shops only and stuff like that. Look at it, click on it, go in, put in your cart, get out of the page again.

Before you know what? You're going to get a voucher or you're going to get like a 10, 10, 20, 30 francs voucher for you to get the shoe and then go get it.

Kia Kamgar: It's like the, yeah, it's the same. I mean, it's like the old school. Okay. Well, I can counter that. I don't like the idea. I really don't. I understand why it's there.

And I understand, I obviously I understand all of that. I don't like the idea because it's all to do with information. If I knew a hundred percent, that that information isn't being used for anything else, maybe, but this is not quite true because they use that to make an avatar as to sell you other stuff.

That's the whole point of social media. Okay. Fine. But who's gaining from that. I'm not really gaining from it, is it what, okay. That's the thing I might, as the consumer, am I gaining by them giving me other info other things that I may want? Well, maybe if that's one way of looking at it, but the other way I look at it is that I'm giving away information that they can use against me in air quotes somehow,

Sebestian Ong: Why do you say against?

Kia Kamgar: Because like this whole big tech thing that we're going through right now, I have a big problem with big tech.

I don't have a problem with the technology because. And I say this thousands of times, and I'll say it again. Because, because obviously I've said this before in my videos.

The one piece of advice that I've gotten when I was in my early teens, was my computer teacher back in the early eighties.

And she said to me, and it's always stuck with me.

Computers, don't go wrong. Humans, go wrong.

Always stuck with me. So whenever someone says to me, or this is wrong, I like no. Computer isn't going wrong. You create the right or somebody's right. And this is a problem. I have the fact that the algorithm is okay, but the person someone's created the algorithm and any software that we have, it because problems and any software, there are always bugs and whatever.

So now are those bugs with the, with the big tech companies? Are they created intentionally? Obviously not, but some things are.

Sebestian Ong: Yes

Kia Kamgar: Against me. This is what I mean by, against me.

Because bugs are there, there in everything. Right. That's why they do updates. But when it comes to algorithm algorithms and the way they're used, I don't trust it when it comes to algorithms and them using the algorithm for.

You know, this whole hate speech thing and whatever we go into. I don't like it. So that information, when I say it's being used against me, okay. I get to know the right Nike's for me. Who's got it. Fine. Great. That's a great idea. But that information can be used against you and often is used against you for these other things.

That's my issue.

So I'm a proponent of you get what you pay for. Absolutely. If you pay nothing, you know, the age old saying, you're the product, et cetera, et cetera. So most of the things that I use services that I use, I make sure I pay for them. Meaning if the service is good enough, I pay for it because I know that the information is relatively safe.

It's not being used. It's not big tech, et cetera. So at the beginning you were saying, do you use this? Do you use that? Do you use Google? I don't because I don't want to. It's not. I mean, I I'm tr I try to get my friends to stop using it because I show them the issues. The problem is it's so ingrained in our society.

It's very hard to do. It's very hard to do so going back to it's my livelihood. It's my, what you were saying. I have an issue with that because before your generation. There were newspapers and people put ads out in newspapers. They knew a rough idea of who was buying it. The Financial Times is bought by X, the, the Evening Standards about bought by X, Daily Mail, et cetera.

So you had an idea of where you should put your advert, but do you need to know pants size, shoe size, hat, size shirt size, because this information is being collected. And that's what I have an issue with. I don't, I, I'm not saying that it's wrong in the sense that, Oh my God, I'm seeing that advert. I'm saying it's wrong in the sense that they don't need to know that it's none of their business to know that information.

Sebestian Ong: Let me question you on this. And I may ask you a gentle question, you walk into a shoe shop, or the shirt shop or whatever you call it, the, the, the, the seamstress, and you tell them your size. They note it down to put in a piece of paper, put their books, and then when they sell the business to the next person, or son take over takes over and they get that information how's that different from big tech?

Kia Kamgar: Way different way different. You just named it yourself. Big tech yes. Algorithm are they use is the, that, that old lady or the man, the, the son using algorithms. Are they selling that information? It's insanely doubtful that they would sell that information. You know why?

Because if it was found out that there were sending that information, that'd be out out of, they'll be kicked out of town. There'll be, yeah.

Sebestian Ong: When they sell their business, they sell the customer's books along with them.

Kia Kamgar: That's what I'm saying. Yeah. But you're sending a business to another business, right?

That's, that's different. That is different. And you've got to kind of admit half admit that at least that, that is different to selling the information to a third party who then uses that information against you come two completely different things. I understand the point. I understand the idea behind it, but I, I do truly believe that different things because selling your personal information for gain or selling your personal information for hate or negative effects are completely different to selling or giving your, your books to your son or selling it to the next proprietor of that business.

Sebestian Ong: True. I agree with you on that a hundred percent. And this is what I advocate. I advocate the new generation. Sorry that sounded so wrong. Sorry. This is what the new generation has to get used to. And that is that we have a set of data that is open and that's, this is the life. As soon as you step out of the house, they can, Oh, this whatever you see at home, it's fine.

No one will fault you on it. You can scream at your wife or your husband and whatever you want. It's fine. You step out of the house. None of that comes out. You don't repeat those words again. All right. So this is data that's at home and this is data that's outside.

Kia Kamgar: Right.

Sebestian Ong: Same with this generation of people.

This is data that you have to give up because you just don't want to own it. If you want to live a life, a normal life where you have the facility of actually buying food. When it's, COVID not go to the shops.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah. Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: You have that data. Now, can you hold yourself responsible for some idiots who do stupid things out of it?

No.

Kia Kamgar: No, absolutely.

Sebestian Ong: When you, with you, with holding your data, help prevent that in the future? If there is enough of a critical mess behind

Kia Kamgar: you, I have a problem with what you're saying though, because you're basically saying the same thing as what a lot of people say.

I use Facebook. I have nothing to hide. I'll keep using Facebook.

That to me is the same kind of argument. But

Sebestian Ong: You are the one person that asked the questions at the beginning. Like you don't use Google, you use this, did you use this, this, this, and this and this because and I was very super, you caught me off guard because you don't want the first five people that actually follows through what you say.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: Because normally I can catch them at a second or third one, like, Oh, I don't believe in giving my data. I turn off WhatsApp. I log out of it, then see them using it. So what's it. What's it. What's, what's the thing. And then you use the Hotmail. So what's the problem. Like you there's no follow true. You do. And as I'm I'm like, okay, shit,

I'm caught. This is one this is one that really follows through and that is fine. And if you believe you are data, is that important to you? You have the a hundred percent right. To keep it because you should be in charge of your own data.

Kia Kamgar: Again, it's more to do with it's none of their business. I mean, Jason Fried actually just wrote an article about it.

You've obviously read it. And it's again, you know, I like I use, HEY and one of the main reasons I use HEY was the blocking of the pixels. One of the main reasons there was other reasons. Yes, you can do that with other apps, but then they don't work nowhere near like that one does. Okay. So I use it and I like Basecamp and blah, blah, blah, but

Sebestian Ong: Okay.

Kia Kamgar: And so I even, I mean, I sent emails out when I had my email list and I send them out, like, why don't fucking these people not looking at my emails, but obviously some people are privacy conscious and they don't just like me, so I get it. So I understand from a marketing point of view, how that data is quite important.

However, for years I've been looking at numbers, I actually wrote about this. I think I've been looking at numbers, how who's going on my website, where are they coming from, et cetera, et cetera. And that's great. Do I do any, do personally forget big tech? Do I do anything with that stuff? Actually? No, I never did.

So why am I collecting it? I don't know. So my only, right, so my, yeah, but that's me. That's not big tech. We know big tech users have for other means that's the problem. Right?

Sebestian Ong: Let me check, let me tell you a bit. I'm working in a big company the amount of data that these big companies collect.

Kia Kamgar: It's ridiculous!

Sebestian Ong: You'd think they would do something about it? Huh?

Kia Kamgar: They're not going to do anything with it. Because that's where the money is.

Sebestian Ong: It's not that it's just that yes. The Google like a, a company called Cambridge analytics or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. They did something about it. Yes. Number 45 and his campaign. Did it something about the data? Yes.

But the big, the bigger companies, Google, like I know some directors in Google. I can tell you like. It wouldn't touch it, with their, their own life, because it always comes out. It always does. And is not worth putting a brand behind it, especially when you're that big

Kia Kamgar: They're already doing it already doing it. And people feel uncomfortable.

I think it's more a case of they don't, they don't like, as you said, like you said, going back to it's my house and I can do whatever I want. Right. You're putting out Alexa everywhere. And you're talking to Siri

Sebestian Ong: You put alexa everywhere?

Kia Kamgar: No, I don't.

Sebestian Ong: I mean,

Kia Kamgar: Yes.

Sebestian Ong: Not you personally don't

Kia Kamgar: But are you told that that information is being used again against you when you buy the product?

Sorry,

Sebestian Ong: You didn't you read the you okay. You, you read. Yes, you do. You do read the agreement before you sign it, or at least you have a copy sent to you and you sign it for, then you read it again.

Kia Kamgar: Do you, do you sign, do you read everything before you say, okay, I want to use this computer

Sebestian Ong: In the beginning.

I did. And then I don't have enough time. So now I always send a copy to myself and I read it after that because, because I need to use a service anyways. There is no way I could get on with life without that service.

Kia Kamgar: Okay.

Sebestian Ong: But keep yourself informed because then I have many contracts on my phone contracts, which I read to it.

I'm like, okay. Like, for example, let me take an example, Salt uh, new service provider for my firm. We cannot sell contracts. I'm like, okay. So what do I have? We have a 12 months and installment plan.

Kia Kamgar: It's the same thing. Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: It's like the Muslim backing saying we don't have interests. We have, I think I was like, what are you talking about?

You don't make sense. It's not a contract. It's 12 months for one thing. I'm like, okay, whatever you want to call it.

Kia Kamgar: I mean, nowadays they're just playing with words and that's the thing they're trying to catch you off guard. No one reads that stuff. That's what I'm getting to. Of course you have to, everyone has to, but no one does.

No one does. So you know, you have friends. I have friends with Android. I would never touch an Android phone, have people with an Android phone. And I'm not saying Apple is the best, but it's way better. Right? I don't, I'm not saying, you know, it's, it's completely different and they're two different kinds of beasts.

Apple have really negative things going against them, but I don't believe that part of it is basically not too much.

Sebestian Ong: It depends, really depends on what apps do you put on it?

Kia Kamgar: You want to see my phone? You really want us to, there's nothing on it's really. I have a one page, uh, thing that you want to see it.

Sebestian Ong: I actually have like too many pages.

Kia Kamgar: That's it? That's it that's my phone.

Sebestian Ong: I don't know how to do it

Kia Kamgar: Because you don't need, it is the whole point of Tech Minimalism. You don't need it. Of course I have other apps, but then not anything I'm again, I'm privacy conscious, but that's it

Sebestian Ong: One use case

Kia Kamgar: Go for it.

Sebestian Ong: I'm telling you why I no longer use my phone in a sense. And then I'll open it and tap it and go into certain things. I use Siri all the time

Kia Kamgar: Right?

Sebestian Ong: So I'm ready to give up sitting by my life. I know, right? I'm going to do certain things. I put my phone away. Trust me. I do. Let me give you a use case. For example

I talk to my phone more than anything else I'm in an apartment is quite tiny. My neighbors thinks I'm crazy, but I talk to my lights. I talk to my everything. Yeah. I go to my partner's place twice a week because you know, we could do this back and forth thing. And I'm always late.

Because I want to finish the last thing. If I look, I go and I'm going to go, I need to turn off the lights. I need to lock the door. I need to turn off the wifi. Should, uh my wifi is turned off. I need to find the next bus plan, the next but that goes over and then I need to then be able to know when to get off.

Because normally my, my head is doing my work and I'm still doing work on, on the class. All that. And my partner is going like, where are you? Why are you not texting me? I don't know what time you're coming in here. Am I going to make dinner or not and blah blah blah so with one command.

Kia Kamgar: Right.

Sebestian Ong: When I say going to apartments late, it does all of that. I've just said, including switching out how long it takes for me to get to my partner's place put it into a short message saying, hello, seeing 32 minutes can't wait take care and then gone.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah, you see, this is getting into automation. This is a different conversation, but I don't like automation. I don't do any of that.

So going back to Siri, I don't use it at all. I type everything.

Sebestian Ong: It saved my life so many times.

Kia Kamgar: I mean, I like video. I like talking. I don't know, but it's nothing to do with the privacy or anything. I think, I think it's annoying and I just don't do it. I think the only thing I use it for is...

Hey Siri, remind me to take the beers out of the freezer in one hour

is probably the only thing that I use Siri for. I don't use it for anything else. I use my phone. I use it's waterproof rate. So I use my phone in the shower. So if I want to come up with a note, I'll do an audio recording. And that's probably the only automated the thing that I do.

I don't use shortcuts. I don't, I don't do it

Sebestian Ong: Something better.

Kia Kamgar: Well, the reason is I want control. Now I told you I worked three to four hours a day. How much more time do I need

Sebestian Ong: Without automation? How do you do that?

Kia Kamgar: I only worked for three or four clients in one at one go

Sebestian Ong: Without automation?

Kia Kamgar: Without automation. I don't need automation for, for what I do. I don't need it. I really don't have any automation. I have no Zap Zapier. I did don't do it. I don't do it. I. No. I have nothing. No automations, absolutely none. No, because it is possible because it is possible.

People make things way more complicated than they are now with your shortcut, for instance. And you're a special case because you've caught me off guard as well in the sense that you've know how to do shortcuts. And a lot of people don't, you're a kind of techie as well.

What I found was when one part of my automation breaks for some bizarre reason, everything is broken.

That's point 1. Point 2. It's not personal. I don't want to become a robot. That's point 2 second thing. It's not personal. I want to send the message to my loved one. I want to send a message to my loved one. How much time is it going to take you to pull out your phone, talk to it narrate to it and say

love I'm coming home. I'll be there in X.

Seriously, how much time is that going to take? Is that not more? Is that not more personal, than...

Sebestian Ong: Tried that missed the bus every single time.

Kia Kamgar: Okay.

Sebestian Ong: And then get that to them later and go like, okay,

Kia Kamgar: I get it. I get it

Sebestian Ong: Even did not call me at that point in time. I would have been faster.

Kia Kamgar: Honestly. I have no automation, nothing. I mean, looking at my phone screen, I have two, four, six, eight, 11 apps.

Sebestian Ong: I. You need, I need, I want you to fly on a wall on your wall, but knowing, knowing how minimalist you are, I'm going to be killing them in no time.

Kia Kamgar: This is the thing. I am not a minimalist. I really am not.

I, I, I understand the minimalism thing. I think it's more of a religion than, than actually anything. So it was weird for me to use Tech Minimalism, but minimalism.

But yeah, I mean, I don't use any. I have, I can't think no, I don't. I mean, even when with my videos, for instance, my daily videos, because people ask me, how are you doing it in 30 minutes, simple, press record one, take no edits, no edits.

The only edits. Top and tail. Three minute video, two minute video, four minute videos, 10 minutes, whatever it's one take, if I'm err I leave it in because again, the brand is me. The brand is you're getting me. The brand is everyone's human. The brand is, keep everything simple. Hence black and white. And there was a reason for black and white

Sebestian Ong: I know, I know. And I'm so glad you did that. Oh my God. Oh, well, I'm so I'm so glad it's black and white.

Kia Kamgar: It's, it's keep everything as simple as possible because you don't need to make it complicated. Everyone makes everything complicated. The one hate I have in this life is people not doing their jobs properly because the complications and the red tape and everything, that's the reason why, or you can't walk your dog without a lead.

Actually you can't. The law says you can. Why you...

Sebestian Ong: Until you see a different dog coming in the direction and the dog is on the lead

Kia Kamgar: That's different. That's different. That's a complete, I have a dog. I know my dog. I know the dogs around this Island. If I go off the Island, I put them on a lead. I mean, you know, thing is we, we live in an Island for God's sake, you know

Sebestian Ong: um, what's the L with the town with the L right outside of Amsterdam.

Kia Kamgar: I'm in Amsterdam.

Sebestian Ong: Wow.

Kia Kamgar: It's it's probably no, don't even go there. No, I live beautiful place, but but yeah, just don't make things complicated. Keep it as simple as possible. Make it transformable. I can go to any white wall with a plant and a mic and whatever. Black and white. Yeah. So, you know, for a long time I said this before, I'll say it again.

I called myself lazy. Everyone called myself lazy. I'm like, no, I, I, I called myself lazy. I'm like, actually, you know what? I don't, I'm just efficient. I just want to find the easiest way. I mean, I've spent 12 hours, 14 hours on one thing to make sure it works. I'm not adverse to hard work, but I don't want to keep doing that.

So I will spend 12 hours to make sure it works. So then I don't have to do it again. Now, now at the age of 52, I'm like, I'm working three hours a day. Fuck, fuck this. You know, I don't need to do it. However, if a client says, dude, you got to come to my place because this, that, and the other, which has happened a few times, I'm there, I'm there for six hours, 10 hours, whatever.

It doesn't bother me because I don't see it as work. And I've said this for years and years how I see my job and what I do. And throughout the years, Being in tech

People give me shit to play with, and then they give me money.

That's my, that's how I see it. I don't see it as a job. Hence, there, there's no way.

I mean, hence there's no work-life balance. It's just my life. That's just it. And it should always be that video that I made recently about a work should be incidental to your life. Not the other way around.

Sebestian Ong: I need to get to your level. I need to get to your level.

Kia Kamgar: I'm not quite zen, but, but yeah,

I'm getting there.

Sebestian Ong: Uh, I just got a feedback from my partner yesterday saying that, you know, I'm working too much, I'm too much things I'm trying to do too much. And I'm like, yeah, it's a new tool because a new tool. And once I get a hang of it and I know how to automate it, I'm done, but I need to send the initial time in the beginning.

Kia Kamgar: The main thing is you know, the, the, the best advice I can give you. And I learned this later on in life is to say, no, just like you do with, I don't want to buy that shoe. I don't wanna buy that shoe. Now I put it in my basket. I don't want to buy it. That's saying no.

Sebestian Ong: Yep.

Kia Kamgar: That's giving you the power.

So saying no is a massive superpower, but it's very difficult for a lot of people to do. But once you, once you master no. And the older you get, you realize, you know what, no, I want to do. It's so much easier when you're older. And, but, and I learned that in my mid thirties, I would say, right. So no, I mean, actually, no, before that I knew it because I was lazy before that.

But, but in a professional level, when I was about 35, I was like, you know, well, because when I was younger, I made the money, I lost the money, made the money, lost the money, made the money, lost the money. And then I got to an age and I'm like, wait, I don't want to lose it again. So what can I do say no say no.

And and, and you don't say no out of spite or you don't say no in a, in a negative, from a negative place, you just say, no is in the, you know, this isn't the project I want to work on this. Isn't the time I want to do it. No, I'm not available at that time. And so when people say to me, when are you available?

I'm like, no. When are you available? Because I'm always available.

Sebestian Ong: I don't know. I heard, I heard that one that that video on that part I was in the shower. I was listening, but no. Yeah, because I was tempted to do a CA Calendly thing. Yeah, Calendly. I was like, Wait, wait, why the fuck would I want to give you my why feel fuck.

Sorry. Why the hell would, I want to keep the control over my timetable?

Kia Kamgar: There you go. There you go.

Sebestian Ong: Wait, what? I know I can block timing, you know, but like we, no, no, no. I tell you,

Kia Kamgar: There you go.

Sebestian Ong: When we can have a call that you don't put it in my calendar, but it's like, that's what bosses do.

Kia Kamgar: Yes.

Sebestian Ong: It's like my nine to five.

So that's what I have to, I it's so funny. I share a lot of people in the last few weeks that LinkedIn Seb, and Sebestian Shares has got no monetization strategy behind.

Kia Kamgar: Right?

Sebestian Ong: It's got every single strategy behind, but is no monetizes monetizations strategies behind. And I actually had to jump on calls with people to assure them just so that I can appear in the meetup rooms because they're like, no, dude, this is my funnel.

Kia Kamgar: Right.

Sebestian Ong: Right. Okay. Like what do you want me to stop sharing? I'll stop sharing. I know that you share very good stuff, but like, what do you, what what trying to do is you're trying to get clients like no, I'm just sharing because they don't know something. And I know something and I just share. I, yeah, but you're trying to sell it.

I don't have a digital market. I want to be company, but I don't, you kind of, you kind of want our products, our products. It's like it's us from seven and above. We do not take clients below seven and six years behind. And so I'm sharing what I know and what I've learned. And and I have to, I have to do it like three times this week and, and,

And. So LinkedIn Seb doesn't have a Monetization strategy, but it does have this strategy of, I was going through a tough time in my life. I was going to, I went to a tough childhood. A lot of people have them has lent some words of wisdom, helping him and got to where I am. And I'm the first one in three generations to actually put myself through university.

I'm the first one in three generations to put myself out of the country and survive on my own.

Kia Kamgar: Awesome.

Sebestian Ong: Thank you.

And I couldn't get here without all the people along the way.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: So he's Clubhouse came, Clubhouse came, I think after the first week I got burnt out and I was like, what the hell is this?

And if I hear one more time, so my sense, I didn't say I'm seeing a question and it goes like, hi, my name is I have how many million are followers and take target. How many million followers on LinkedIn and how many, six, seven figures. And I'm like, shut up. Answer the fricking question, the question is how can he, or she have a better content strategy, not what you do and what books yourself.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah. They're trying to do. It's like, this is my, this is my success. So you should listen to me. It's not so stupid. It's really stupid.

Sebestian Ong: 45. Is this social proof too? No, you can see that

Kia Kamgar: No.

Sebestian Ong: So, so that made me think like, what am I here for? What was my strategy here and everything.

And then it got clear, like. I was there for a reason. And I'm listening to all these people for a reason. You know, when you listen, you just have to listen and you have nothing else.

Kia Kamgar: Yes.

Sebestian Ong: You hear? I hear, and I hear what people are saying.

What they're not say,

Kia Kamgar: What they're not saying that's the main thing. What they're not saying.

This is the thing, like, if you, I mean, this is the whole point of, this is why I wanted to create this conversation type thing, because podcasts are boring because what they do is, hi, how are you? I'm this, I'm that. And then right at the end, when can people get, where can people get, like, get hold of you? I mean, seriously, just have a fucking conversation.

Be a fly on the wall.

Sebestian Ong: You see conversation is different. It's like, it's like Clubhouse. They always say, if it's a platform with no ads.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah. That's bullshit.

Sebestian Ong: Everybody's in advertisement. Everybody's a walking ad.

Kia Kamgar: Everyone like everyone is. But it's how you advertise. Absolutely. And I mean, everyone needs, I mean, I used to sell houses.

I used to sell money in bank. I know selling, I get it. I know marketing kinda. Right. I, you know, I'm not a marketeer. I kind of know what I know what I like. And I can kind of connect the two. Right? I do have an issue what I'm trying to fix. Uh, I can sell ice to Eskimos and pencils. I mean, I can do all of that cause they used to be sales, but.

My strategy for getting clients is really just to give my information out there. And if someone says, I can't do this and let me hire this guy, that's basically the idea. And it's working, right? It is working. It's the, that's it, people get to know you who you are, know what you couldn't do, know what you've done in the past, who you are, you know who you are as it were.

And then they hire you. But a lot of people are just sell, sell, sell. As you said to Clubhouse, they're like, this is me, seven figures. I do this I've uh, this and I've Ted talk. And I'm like, dude, shut the F like you said, the question was what's your shoe size or whatever it was, you know,

Sebestian Ong: Something like that.

But you see, I solve for it. I hear that. And and I still fall for it. So by the time I get to speak and share what I want to share into the person's question, I go like, hi, I'm Sebestien. I worked for a big company and we have 7,500 people. And I doing, social media for a 200 senior leader team. And actually it's my words behind her.

Like, wait, this is nothing to do with his shoe size. Like what the fuck

Kia Kamgar: It's crazy in it. It's crazy.

Sebestian Ong: So yeah, so I've learned, I've learned to be humble. Shut the fuck up, respecting the paycheck. So I'm just going to do my work as I do, but my strategy for Clubhouse and LinkedIn Seb is first of all, it's my own personal branding.

I can do. Whenever I want with it. My face is on it.

Kia Kamgar: Exactly.

Sebestian Ong: I can do a lot of social tests. So a lot of people don't know this, but almost every single one of my posts is a social experiment. Right.

Kia Kamgar: That's not a bad thing. That's not a bad thing. I mean, like I don't get that much. And this is the other thing about engagement.

Because I hear this a lot, even on Clubhouse, they were talking about my, you know, about videos and should I do videos and I can give you give advice and stuff and I have done, but then they say, well, I'm not getting any engagement. And I'm like, well, engagement. It depends on what you're trying to do. Like I was annoyed that I wasn't getting engagement, that people weren't watching my videos in masses because this is great information, et cetera, et cetera, we all do it.

But what I've realized in this new business rather than my old business is that people take that information and it stays in there. And then they contact you three months later or two months later because they like, Oh, you know what? That somebody talks about it always the Tech Minimalist or is Kia or it was MacJunky, whatever that's when you get the client.

So the engagement shouldn't matter where it matters, which is where you're coming from, is to get more people, to see it, the algorithm to see it and stuff as well, because that I understand that's the problem in a way I'm having. But

Sebestian Ong: That stuff is getting out well

Kia Kamgar: It's normal. I mean, yeah. I mean, I'm not getting that much engagement, no likes and no whatever.

But when I speak to people, when I speak to people, they're like, yeah, I watched it and, or I saw it. I, because you, you said the same thing. I was having a shower or whatever you say, then listen to it. So that when I hear those things, I'm like, dude, I'm the I'm. All right.

Sebestian Ong: And this is what I've heard advocate as a digital marketer.

I refuse to believe in vanity metrics. What I define by vanity metrics is any metrics as defined by others

Kia Kamgar: Right.

Sebestian Ong: To measure their outcome and just take it over without thinking. And said, Oh, that's how to measure views for videos. And that's successful. That means we should have this much news for our videos too, but dude, in different business, that's right.

Our clients are six figures, your clients like, like two figures, it's like, yeah. What do you want to have the same views and get like No.

Kia Kamgar: No, that's not where. Yeah, exactly. I mean, vanity metrics. I actually did write a post about it on my HEY, uh, about, uh, I said vanity, metrics or both. That was the title of it.

Sebestian Ong: That's a good one.

Kia Kamgar: And I actually said like, I used to collect and this, that and the other, but the only metric that I go by is how full my book is, how full my calendar is. And when I say my calendar, because it's never full. As in, am I working with three clients or four clients, you know, and if I am, then, Hey, my job's done.

I'm doing well. You know, and that's how I see it. And the other way I see it is if I make enough money for the day, the week of the month, I actually stopped working. I sit in front of my Xbox or I go walking with my dog and I love that. It's like, seriously, it's the thing is it's out of choice, not necessary necessity.

There has been famine pieces to, to, to the way I'm working. Absolutely. Especially in the current period. And I'm like, am I doing the right thing? But then I'd like to think that I'm quite an ethical guy in the sense that I have my, the way I am and the way I work. And I don't want to really cross to the, to the other side, not the dark side, put the, the other side.

So let's see if we can make it. And it's working right. Difficulty part for me, uh, is the transition between MacJunky, the business that the Mac side of things I should say. And what I'm doing now is that the selling part is different, completely different

Sebestian Ong: Very different

Kia Kamgar: Very different because the Mac how I eat, no, no, no, it's not, not, but not necessarily the business, but the selling part of it, the, the, not the marketing, but the sales part of it, the sales part of it was, it was a necessity product.

That's how I put it. Okay. MacJunky was a necessity product because your Mac went wrong. Something didn't work. The network went down, et cetera. The IT part of it, shit. I need to find someone, they call the plumber and the plumber comes in and fixes it. That's the necessity product, the, uh, the other product.

And I've changed my mind to this, but this is how I saw it. So the other products. Is a luxury product because people see it as a luxury. Do I need to spend this much money for it.

So my point for the whole content thing that I put out was to be top of mind to be by the way, this, so I'm trying to make it into a necessity product for them to realize that it's a necessity product.

And it's working to a certain degree

Sebestian Ong: These are the thoughts behind personal branding.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: This is the secret sauce behind. And I tried to explain to a lot of companies that are doing this for this is the essence of social selling.

Kia Kamgar: I'm so glad that you, you agree with it because I like, am I doing this right?

Sebestian Ong: It's not about, look at me.

I can do this look at me, I can do that. Is like I'm doing this.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: You can, you can benefit from it. So take it, take it with you. If you need more help on it, I have a service if you want it, but I'm not going to push it in your face.

Kia Kamgar: There you go.

Sebestian Ong: Social selling goes in such a way that I just do my day job. I just do my day to day job. I just do it.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: The people will come.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: But I've known all of a sudden people that I have integrated social selling and selling beautifully together. They have a system behind. But I can see I can, but then you kind of get

Kia Kamgar: You can see through it kind of thing. Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: But if I see that they don't have a mean, intention is just a business to business, business processes, you know, putting into the business process.

Finally get it. Some people work better that way. You know and this guy that I know who did it, it's amazing. He's got this amazing system behind it and I could see to it, but I see different respects because he's to give content and he's, he gives help, like, like this, he doesn't stop. He has something he gives.

Yep. But he has a system behind it.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah. Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: You know I think that's amazing. So, so do what you're doing because when you do you,

Kia Kamgar: Yeah, no one else can be you.

Sebestian Ong: Yes.

Kia Kamgar: That's the point.

Sebestian Ong: I can copy this video and do it on my own side. I can no problem. I can do it tomorrow. But I cannot keep it up.

Kia Kamgar: No, well, this is what, this is what I tell people

when they say, I don't want to make videos. I think you were, maybe you were in the same room. The point is everyone can make videos. The reason why people say they don't want to make videos. And this is the reason that I, it took so long for me to start making videos. If you look at my early videos, Oh my God.

Was because you watched them, you saw them

Sebestian Ong: This is my job. I stalk people online

Kia Kamgar: Right? Right. So the reason why I thought, you know what, I'm going to start making videos was a piece of advice. I can't remember who it was. Is there someone said the way you say, sorry, let's start again. Zen. The reason why I want didn't want to make videos is because everyone is a tech guy.

Everyone has that information out there. Everyone talks about the same thing. And I thought who's going to listen to me. I'm a nobody. I'm no, honestly, because this is how people think, right? Because now that I've done it, I'm giving people advice. No, because this is what I heard. The way you speak is different.

To the way you speak that a different way to the other way person speaks in the way they speak the way they bring the content out. Just anything it's all completely different. Who does black and white tech videos for God's sake? No one, because I found a way of doing something slightly different and people are watching it and they, you know, they benefit from it, et cetera.

So when someone says, I don't want to make videos, the first thing I say, this is exactly what I did, uh, exactly what I said, but the way you tell a story is different to the way your neighbour tells a story. So just tell your story, because there'll always be somebody who enjoys the way you tell the story and the way you do things and stuff.

And it's so true.

Sebestian Ong: This is your tribe.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah. Yeah. I have a, I have a, a few people, a handful of people, couple of handfuls of people that really following and actually being tribe, like, which is really nice mind you, they don't share my stuff, but they, you know, the messages again. No,

Sebestian Ong: They don't share online.

They don't, they will not fit into any of the metrics that you're ever going to get from any of the tools you're going to find.

Kia Kamgar: No, no.

Sebestian Ong: Well I bet you, and this is what I did. This should one of my posts coming up. If you take this idea, I'm going to find you and hunt you down

Kia Kamgar: This is live, by the way

Sebestian Ong: It's okay. Let this be the post. I can see my time. There you go. You go to Clubhouse app. You'd go to anybody that you have connected with, or you're following for awhile. You kind of follow for a reason, you know, share interests or whatever. Do this live six degrees connection thing, click on a person's face and regular, the face.

Kick on the person who voted and nominated a name.

Kia Kamgar: That's right. Yeah. I do that.

Sebestian Ong: And do that six times.

Kia Kamgar: Six times. Oh, that's interesting. Okay.

Sebestian Ong: Yeah. With as many people as you want here, you have a 98% chance of like, Oh wait, I know someone. I know this person.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah. Okay. That's yeah. That's like the three degrees, three degrees of separation or something. Three steps.

Sebestian Ong: Six degrees of seperation

Kia Kamgar: Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: Of separation. And I was so shocked. I tested it on myself. I was like, Oh wow. And this is like people from Australia or us. Like, US I get it with my, my partners profile. I'm like, geez. Wow, this is good. Yeah. This is what Clubhouse offer. You can't find anywhere else. Facebook can kind of let you do that.

You cannot trace back. You know, these people are spreading by whom and by whom and the whom So can you imagine? LinkedIn. No, you can see. Yeah.

Kia Kamgar: It's not quite the same. Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: It's not organic.

Kia Kamgar: No.

Sebestian Ong: Yeah. So, so this is one thing that's cool about Clubhouse in the sense that you can see how it comes about. So you can visualize these data should have beautiful.

That would be, that would be like a multi-million dollar artwork.

Kia Kamgar: That's quite an interesting thought. Yeah. I mean, you're all connected somehow. I mean, it's the whole thing of, if you sit in the corner, you see everyone that you've never known in your life kind of thing. It's kind of the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Really interesting.

Hey, I'm going to take your time. I mean, this has been awesome. Awesome. Uh, thank you for being here. I mean, I don't want this to sound like a podcast because it isn't, but, but no, it was great. Great conversation. Always open to have a chat with you. Or in fact, anyone I, I pre open and said, my calendar's what's up.

Sebestian Ong: Can you quickly just summarize for my users or my followers? Like, what do you do? And what can you offer

Kia Kamgar: Go to my website? So basically, as I said before, people that I've worked with and people that even, I don't know, because I see people online and stuff, they don't know how to use. Tech correctly. And when I say tech tech stack it, that kind of stuff, the software they use, the processes they have. Where are the emails?

How security conscious are you basically anything to do with tech? I'm the guy, I'm the guy between you and the IT guy. This is how I usually describe myself because IT is great. I've been in IT but it is IT with the pencils there. And they have no personality, generally 98% of the time, 98. And I'm talking IT not talking about tech.

There's slight difference. IT guy because I was one. They don't have a personality. So when, and generally IT guys want to use the technology because it's there. Not because it's useful for the client. Oh, there's a new tech. Let's do this. Let's get, let's put this. Oh, what a server? Yeah, let's put a server in.

People don't need that shit. People don't need. Stuff they don't need. So what I do is go to clients big and small. My, primarily I deal with coaches and consultants because I am one and I know how they deal with, but I do deal with non-profits and companies like that. So I go in and say, who gave you this software?

Yeah, we don't work with them anymore. No, I know why, because they use the, yeah, because they use the wrong software for what they need. I have one client here who were, went to three different people. Uh, they all gave him a C.. Uh, now, could it be the client? This is the thing. Could it be the client? It couldn't work necessarily.

Right. So, but it depends on how you speak to the client. And I find IT guys, as I said, they only use the software that they want. So they just go to an IT guy or someone that knows computers, get a piece of software and they go, Oh shit, it doesn't work. And I've had that a lot happen in these, in this recent year because of this pandemic.

Everyone's like, Oh shit, I need to work remote. Do you need any help? No, we have our designer that knows Notion. It's okay. They go and use Notion or some Airtable or whatever it is. And they go, actually, you know what I'm saying? Working, can you help. Half the time. Not always, I have a no answer to that because if you didn't trust me in the first place, you're not going to trust me afterwards.

And it's going to be way too much work. And then I'm going to get the shit because it's not working. So depending on who the client is, I don't work with them.

Sebestian Ong: But now this is where I think it's amazing. I'm speaking to you on this day. And exactly because I have a network of female entrepreneurs in my, in my, in my network and I'm not a feminist because I don't believe that the women has to work harder.

It's just that we have to be more aware and more conscious. I'm not a feminist, I'm just believing in we are equal. Just speaking out. There's just no group. It happens to me, women entrepreneurs that are working and doing everything they own. They're like a mom, their caretaker there and, and the consultant and the coaches.

And that's why I offer what I offer at no cost, because I want to give back whenever my mom gave up her career to have me so I'm giving out five times, 30 minutes a week, give whatever to share my experience and stuff like that. Of course I can go in and jump in and develop like automations and workflows and stuff like that.

But it doesn't always work because you can have people you must have and stream a company slogan. You must have people technology and proccesses.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is the thing. My best friend is a process manager and I talked to her about all this. She's just, you just become a COO at a company. So she might hire me actually for the company she's working for, which is great.

And we were constantly talking about processes because the process matters way more than the tech way more than the tech, way more than the software. Way more than the person, the person take the person out, take the tech out. You've got to sit down and figure out what the process is and the way I usually do it, because again, I mainly work with consultants and stuff is I say to them, work backwards, don't work forward.

Don't go from the client to the invoice, go from the invoice to the client, get it, getting the client. Because when, because when you work backwards, you understand the process clearer because you have to think, what do I do before this? And when you're thinking about it, then you realize what the process is

So you write it down and then rewrite it the other way round and then go, well, I don't need to do that. Well, I don't need to do that. I don't need to do that. And that's how you, you get your process once you've got the process. And if you're working with other people make an SOP, why don't you got the SOP go and test it, once it's tested, use it.

Sebestian Ong: I'm grinning like a monkey down here.

Kia Kamgar: So many people don't do this. And this is what I mean about IT guys. They don't do this process managers. She doesn't even do this because I asked her there's a difference. So I asked her, what do you do? She said, I do the processes. Perfect. You've done half my job now. Who do you go and talk to about that while we talk to you?

The IT guy, like, yeah, but and then she's like, you know what? You're right. We need someone in the middle. And I was, I was interviewed by a journalist and I was in a conversation like this with the director of the national archives here in Holland. I was like, Whoa. And they were talking about not necessarily processes, but what data should they should hold and what kind of data they should hold.

But we both came to the conclusion. Yes, you need data. Obviously it's the national archives. You don't need everything, but who's the, who's the person to decide what data you need. And again, it came, comes, it comes back round to processes. You have to have the processes. And they're like, yeah, you know what?

We need a guide between the IT guy and us creating the processes. And I'm like, hello is what I've been saying for years. The IT guys like tech the process. Person's like, Oh, this is perfect. How do you put the shit together? You need, you need some people, process managers can do this, but they could just go to wear a different hat.

Sebestian Ong: Yeah

Kia Kamgar: But, Oh, they could only do it if they know tech meaning, IT

Sebestian Ong: Not everybody knows tech

Kia Kamgar: No, no, of course. No, of course not. My, my best friend, you know, she knows processes. She knows as much tech as she needs to know, but she's not the tech guy, the tech woman, whatever. So you need the person and there are IT companies that, that do have that in a way, but generally it's the IT guy.

It's not another guy. It's the IT guy going, you know what? I get the process. I think we need this, this and this, but they're not coming from a place of, they need this. They're coming from a place of, this is new tech that I want to implement for this process. Completely different way of working. And I find this all the freaking time and trying to explain this to company CEO's COO's and stuff like, dude, get the right process, then figure out the tech, then talk to the IT guy to implement it.

The IT guys, the builder, the IT guy. Isn't the architect because I mean, the architect effectively is the process manager. The builder is the IT guy. Who's the guy in the middle constructor. So you need the, you need to consider, you need to put it all together.

Sebestian Ong: And this is the best thing about what you're doing right now, because you don't longer have to explain to this.

You no longer have to explain this to anybody again.

Kia Kamgar: Now that's true.

Sebestian Ong: You have to cut this out. You didn't put it up as a, as a, as a featured video on the front. And plus I'm giving you this idea. I want like a small favor from you. The part where I asked the question and you answered about the whole

Kia Kamgar: Yeah

Sebestian Ong: how you work backwards, you got to cut it out for me and put your name behind it. I like the feature on my wall because I want to refer people to it. Because I example, today I was working with, uh uh, a lady I was helping and she was like, Oh, I was thinking like, Oh, I need a CRM. Because like, I don't know which apartment she is on.

We almost had a missed appointment and I don't have the data of where she's going. I have this need that, you know what you want. I found this, this idea is dumb answer, sorry. Instead of having a CRM. So I can say like, well, when we talk, we talk about why and stuff like that put in the calendar, but you can click on the event itself every time then after the event, is it go in the same, a calendar appointment today?

We plus we have deliverables right there. Tick, tick, tick, no tick did didn't touch this the next week. Put it up there. Copy and paste next appointment in there. And that's it.

Kia Kamgar: It's quite interesting. You talk about CRM. I don't use a CRM. I've tried and I hated it. And I, I, and I just don't recommend CRMs.

I use Basecamp, right? I use Basecamp. I have a thing called clients. And in there I have people I talk to. I mean, it's so fricking simple. Uh, before that I was just using Things, Things 3, before that I was using to do, I mean, you can do all of that. So it depends on what you do. Because some companies do need CRMs because of the processes and stuff.

But if you're working on your own or maybe two people or possibly three people it's push you don't necessarily, depending on what you do, you don't necessarily have. I was talking to a company who was using Basecamp. I've have been using it for years, but they just don't know how to use it. And they want some help.

And they said, well, we don't know whether we should get a CRM. Like, well, how many comp com how many projects do you work on at the same time? 10. Okay. How many, what kind of leads do you have? Probably about 20 stick it in Basecamp. You don't need, it's simple. You don't need, you just don't. I mean, and there's three of them or four of them, but only two of them do the CRM part.

Like put it all in Basecamp, put it all in one place. It doesn't have to be. I use Basecamp. There are so many tools out there that you can use instead of a CRM, because CRMs are way over bloated. I have not found one CRM that says this, that nothing, nothing. I've tried everything. And in fact, I'm going to have, I know someone who created a personal CRM, which has great app, the guy's awesome, but there's a few things wrong with it.

Sebestian Ong: From Clubhouse?

Kia Kamgar: But I'm like, no, no. From Clubhouse, uh, the apps called Mogul. It's a great app. It's a personal CRM. And I started

Sebestian Ong: The one I know from Clubhouse is called something Dash. And the guy was that is the got CEOs was in every room that I was in. I was like,

Kia Kamgar: I really think CRM is a great to a certain degree.

Pipedrive is a fantastic product if you're just doing sales Insightly and all that. I mean, you know, there's so many, but they're just so over bloated and they cost too much for what they are and what they do. Again, it depends on the company. It depends on the client that needs it. So of course I recommend Pipedrive and depending on the client, would I use it as a consultant? Need it? Does a coach need it? Does this. You can find other way.

Sebestian Ong: I can't tell if I can say too much, but I respect him because of that. I can't say too much

Excel sheet.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah, why not? I mean, that's how it started

Sebestian Ong: He can tell me every single client of his

Kia Kamgar: Right.

Sebestian Ong: Every single post, like every single engagement that they had with his post and stuff like that.

Every single thing

Kia Kamgar: I don't go, I don't go to that level actually. And the, I, there's a reason why I don't, again, it's to do with automation. It's a weird thing. No, no, no, no. I'll explain what I mean by it so automation is kind of like making sure everything is done for you. So you don't have to remember anything.

Having everything in one place is a fantastic thing for a lot of people. I don't do that. So I like, for instance, this conversation I'm having with you, I have it in Basecamp as a to-do list kind of thing, and blah, blah. So you're in my thing. Right? So I've put it in there, but I'm not going to write down he wears glasses or he has a brown shirt or whatever it is.

I just don't do that kind of stuff. I do put the basics. I met him on Clubhouse. I do that's about it. I don't put dates or anything like that. So I do the basics because when it comes to people, knowing who you are, you're only human and you won't, you will forget where did you meet him? So you've got it down there, but you don't need to know the first time I met him, did he have a dog?

Did he talk about his partner or, I mean, I don't need to write that stuff down.

Sebestian Ong: It's American though.

Kia Kamgar: It is

Sebestian Ong: you need that in America, you do that in America, no matter what you have to have it

Kia Kamgar: but I don't go that far. I, for my personal CRM, but I understand why some people do need it and whatever, but for my personal CRM is more a case of, uh, did I speak to him?

Oh yeah, of course I did. What did we do? Oh yeah, we did that. And that's about it. That's literally about it because that's, again, I like when I did have a CRM, I had Daylight and I had Insightly and I did have Pipedrive. I had a couple of them, uh, because I wanted to test them out Daylight, brilliant product.

I know the guy, he came here to my office and we talked and stuff. I know it's a great product, but I don't use Apple mail. So I can't see that connection. I don't use I didn't like the Sync that they have. So it's Caldav and you got to put it on. It was a bit bitty. I think you need to have an IT guy working at your place just in case something goes wrong.

Although it's got a lot better. The main issue, the main issue for me was I'm putting so much data into a CRM and I'm not using half of it. So I'm wasting time. The time I could use playing my Xbox the time I could use go walking at the time I could use. To walk my dog and do the things I wanted to, why am I spending all that time on that stuff?

How can I make this easier? It's all about how I can make things easier. So if I can put something in my to-do list or in my Basecamp, if I need to find it right, and it's there

Sebestian Ong:  I'm sure this message is meant for me somehow, as I said, I think,

Kia Kamgar: It all comes down to people, making things over complicated. And, and like you said earlier, looking at your competitor and then looking at the next person.

So the reason why I purposely didn't want to make I did at the beginning, but I purposely stopped it like how I use this and how I use that. And this is the, you know, the reason why I stopped doing that is because it's not personal to the person I'm working with. I'm giving you basic information that is already out of date.

Right? So, so on my website, I actually say I work one-on-one, I don't do courses. I don't do any of this stuff. Not because I don't want to make money, but because what I do is personal to the person, personal to the company, I can give basic information. Sorry,

Sebestian Ong: What you do is personal to the brand?

Kia Kamgar: Exactly. So it's personal to that. Yeah. And so making how to videos, there are 1,000,001 out there, it just doesn't work for me. And it definitely doesn't work for the client because they're like, Oh wait, this was two years ago.

Sebestian Ong: It's so interesting because you have this. So you say you have no idea about marketing and branding and there you are creating a niche for yourself out of nothing of simplicity as you like to put it.

And then you literally just put yourself across as the luxury marketer. And then you said like, you do it and you do it so effortlessly, like, like, Oh, this is nothing. I'm just doing nothing. I'll do as little as possible. And you've carved yourself a nice spot up there when no one else can touch you and reach you.

And I'm like this, what?!

Kia Kamgar: You know what? I love the fact that because you are a marketer and that's one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you as well. Yeah. I mean, the thing is, you know, everyone has imposter syndrome, but I'm not doing anything. No, but I do. Everyone does, but the thing is. You never know you're doing something right.

Until someone kind of gives you praise in a way. I mean, let's be honest, right? Someone says, actually you are. No, no, but I see it as praise because that's confirmation. Okay. Confirmation. I see it as confirmation. I'm like, dude, okay. Then, then I am doing it. Right. So then I don't have to change anything because I'm constantly changing things.

Right. We all change things because it's like, well, this ain't working, this ain't working. Should I do this? Shall I do that?

Sebestian Ong: Yeah. And that's adapting and it's okay. You have to adapt. You have to . Adapt and modify aswel

Kia Kamgar: adoption is different. Yeah. Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: No, change is like, I'm wrong? This is wrong. Let's yeah. I want to do something else.

Kia Kamgar: We've done that in the past year or so because of the MacJunky thing going backwards,

Sebestian Ong: That's different because anyone who wants to run their own company knows this. You put your heart in your soul and your life into it. Yeah.

Kia Kamgar: Ok. Okay.

Sebestian Ong: I was, I was known as InFitness Seb I know as the one that as a one fitness instructor, I can go to any schools, any levels and get the students moving through or all boys school.

I could get it moving.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah. Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: It changed . From that to the corporate Sebestian.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah.

Sebestian Ong: It was a pain in the butt!

Yeah, I mean, I would call mine a pivot rather than a change, I guess, because it's still tech and it's effectively the same. So I do use the word pivot

Lazier?

Sorry.

Lazier. It has been the lazier. easier. the more efficient you.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah. I mean, I'm hoping that people get the message of what we do, what you do, what I do. I think we've pretty much cleared what we do do. We've pressed each other on a couple of things as well, which is always the best way to do things. Because if you're just agreeing with everything, it just not right.

You're just saying, I mean, I've never been, Oh, I tell you a story. I've never been a yes man.

So I used to work in the music industry. I used to install studios. So I've been into Abbey road and Air studios and things like this back in London. And I was once told to go and install a Pro Tools system at this guy's place.

And I went there I didn't know who he was. He had this beautiful little house. It was kind of a little cottage, but he had a beautiful studio and I went there and I did it. And he had this really, really, really annoying voice. It was really nasally. So I had to, so he had this control room and then I, uh, and then all his equipment was upstairs.

There was a cable going up to the, to the loft I crawled into the loft of the loft was quite low. It was all dusty with cables everywhere. That was just my life. So it didn't bother me. And I was there pulling stuff out of his computer and installing this stuff. And he came with me and he's taller than me.

And he was behind me. like, yeah, I don't like if you should do it like that, because maybe we should... and he was constantly. And I was so annoyed. I was like, dude, Ray, please leave me the fuck alone. And this was a to a client leave because I had enough leave me alone. Please go downstairs. Once I'm done, I'll go down there, set it up and it'd be fine.

He kind of looked at me and left. I was like, phew. And I was like, maybe I did too much. Anyway, carried on, went downstairs. He's now sitting on the couch. He's beautiful. Leather couch, reading a newspaper. I didn't even see his face. So I'm sitting at the control desk, set up at the computer, set up the studio and everything.

And I said, okay. Right, I'm done. Thanks. If you have any questions, let me know. And his, with the papers, like, okay, And I left and I was like, Oh shit

Sebestian Ong: Your not gonna get paid

Kia Kamgar: halfway down my boss at the time, because I was working at this, uh, this place. But my boss at the time, uh, he called me and he's like, what did you do there?

I was like, I explained to him and he goes, well, you know what? He doesn't want anyone else touching his stuff other than you. And I was like, yeah, all right, whatever. I thought nothing of it. So I went back and they were all like, so the salesman who sold the stuff, the boss, it was like, do you know who that guy is?

I have no fucking idea. Who is, who is this? It's just a guy with a studio. Nice studio. He's the he's. I can't remember his last name. His name is Ray. He did all the boy bands. So he was rich as anything. And he's like, he doesn't want anyone to touch his computer.

Sebestian Ong: I think he's been knighted recently a while a go

Kia Kamgar: I didn't know.

So he, so the point is. Be yourself and don't be a yes, man. It could go either way. And again, it comes down to the no thing. It's like, whatever, you know? No, I mean, I'm me. If you don't like me, whatever it comes to being yourself, going back to what we were saying again, not being a yes, man. And if you, because if you're a yes, man, you'll not really get you don't you won't get any respect.

You don't have to be a no man in an asshole way. Yeah. Like we explained before, but just be true to yourself. And, and I could tell you loads of stories like that, actually there was another time.

Sebestian Ong: How do you do that then with, now going back to what we do, how do you tie in that strategy with content strategy?

Kia Kamgar: In what way? What do you mean?

Sebestian Ong: I'll give you an example, so you're not supposed to share links.

Okay. It doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't get pushed up, especially if you're sharing links. That's going out of LinkedIn. Yeah. They say to share links from within it gets better, but my test proof, otherwise

Kia Kamgar: I was going to say the same.

Sebestian Ong: Thank you. And, and I didn't just have my account on a test, like on, on people's we picked big brand names, like big, big people's name. So do we share, do we not share?

Kia Kamgar: So I experimented because I was told also, uh, don't put a link in the, in your blah, blah, blah. Right. But everything I do is a link.

It's a video click to go to my website to watch the video. So I'm, you know, I'm not a big guy. So I get like 25, sometimes 40, I think the maximum I've ever had is 56 or something. I don't know. I can't remember. And then thought. Wait, so everyone's telling me not to put links so for a week or so, let me just embed my video.

Just upload it to YouTube. I got less now, could it be a weird week? Could it be the videos were different, but I've done that three times now at different...

I got I've got less people viewing the, the seeing it. Yeah, see

Sebestian Ong: native. So native or went it's on YouTube.

Kia Kamgar: Both. I got less, sorry. I got less when it was on YouTube.

On, on LinkedIn, on LinkedIn. I don't have anything on YouTube, so I have it all on my website. So it was a, usually it's a link go to my website. I stopped that for like a week or so and had it natively. And I got less viewers on that post than I did when my video was not native

Sebestian Ong: when was this? Within the last few months?

Kia Kamgar: Uh, within the last few months, but I've done it three times. So I've done it last year as well. I think I did it twice last year and I did it once this year.

Sebestian Ong: Let's talk about your last few months. There was this whole like engagement bull crap thing. Sorry. it really bugged me.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah

Sebestian Ong: this, this is very, quite, quite recent, quite recent.

So I want you to try this. Try one more time. This time, round I want you to do this thing. I'm going to get you to engage. Okay. I'm going to get some of us engage with that. You need to promise me that within the first few hours, every single engagement you get, you engage with. Right, right, right, right back.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah. I do that kind of pretty much all the time.

Sebestian Ong: No walking away. So we're going to get you about six engagement. You're going to try and respond to all six. Okay. And see that because I did the test and I try for the first time to like babysit my posts, which is a pain in the butt. Like I put so much time into the video.

I want to get away from it. I'm going to stop looking at it, you know?

Kia Kamgar: Yeah

Sebestian Ong: And I engaged in that video got pushed up.

Kia Kamgar: That's interesting. I think, I mean, engagement obviously matters, but again, when people, when you're talking about engaging and you're talking about liking and commenting, right. Pretty much commenting and then more commenting, obviously.

Sebestian Ong: Yeah

Kia Kamgar: well, I mean, I don't even get that, that often. There are, there have been a couple of posts that I've been getting quite a few, again, some people commenting and, but the thing is even, I don't have any notifications on my phone, by the way. That's the other thing, nothing, nothing, nothing beeps at me. So I'm like, everyone says, don't keep looking at your phone.

I'm actually the opposite. I don't have notifications but I look at my phone all the time, I just do, because I have the time I don't care. Right. The only notifications I have is Basecamp. And when my phone rings, I guess that's the only one. I don't have anything else and Basecamp because my client, you know, clients are on there.

But other than that, I have off. So I look at my phone all the time, so I check yeah. LinkedIn or whatever, and I'm on top of it. I don't have any red dots. I hate red dots. So if I see a red.in Twitter or LinkedIn, I check it because I don't get that many. And I, I hate red dots. I want to get rid of them.

So but it's interesting because my next, from next week, my plan is, uh, to start doing these long form videos. So this one I'm planning, I'm thinking, I don't know, but this might go out on Wednesday.

Sebestian Ong: Right.

Kia Kamgar: But in between now, and then I'm going to be doing the snippets, doing the little, right. So then they will be native obviously.

And then hopefully we'll get engagement for that. And then we can test it out that way for sure.

Sebestian Ong: But the long-form comes off the, your short-from what?

Kia Kamgar: My, okay. Uh, I'm not gonna tell anyone else only you're hear it.

Sebestian Ong: We can cut this out.

Kia Kamgar: No, I'm not going to cut this out. I was just joking because I want people to hear it.

So the idea for me is to try to change my strategy with my content. And again, going back to making things easier, trying to find the easiest way,

Sebestian Ong: simpler, simpler is your word. It's not, it's definitely not easier

Kia Kamgar:  easier. I dunno. I think it would be anyway. So every day I used to make a video every day, 30 minutes, and I loved doing it.

I may still do it, but I don't know, but I love doing it. My plan now is to make long-form content because people have been asking me, I like your videos, but they're too short. I like the like the podcast, but they're too short. So I thought, well, how about this? How about I make a video like this Conversation where I talk about the same stuff.

I could cut this up into 10 videos, to be honest, but I don't want to do that. What I want to do is leave it as a long-form video every Wednesday and in between recording it. And it's being posted to cut it up as snippets, not videos, but snippets. So it's the same thing, but I don't want to make three minute videos.

I want to make 30-second snippets and post them, there's going to be loads of snippets in this obviously, and then post them out. And so I'm going to try that for a few months.

Sebestian Ong: Yeah but bringing people back to the long form video, right.

Kia Kamgar: Absolutely

Sebestian Ong: which means you could upload a long form video first

oh yeah.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah, definitely. That's going on Wednesday.

Sebestian Ong: That makes sense. That makes sense.

Kia Kamgar: So, so from now until Wednesday, I will do the short form and on Wednesday it will be ready to be uploaded.

So won't be uploaded before the snippets. Yeah. Okay. And then after that, and then after that, because obviously I have to make a video for them for the following week and I already have a bunch of people waiting for it to be so be on it, which is like, Whoa, this is pretty cool in the past couple of days.

So yeah, so before I make the next video, I'll still be promoting this one and the other one and whatever. So I want to get, so why is it easier for me? Why is it easy?

Sebestian Ong: Oh, come on you can tell, I can't see the whole process in front of me. Like, Oh my God.

Kia Kamgar: Right.

So why is it easier? Why is it simpler? WhatDescript makes it a bit easier to make the little, little snippets.

And even though I come up with the idea so quickly, I walk my dog and come up with three or four ideas for a video, isn't it like three videos. So I think it would be basically the same, but I just want to try long-form and see how it goes. And plus also I'm talking to someone else and getting their point across as well.

I can bounce off ideas. They can bounce off ideas. I think it works.

Sebestian Ong: Are you kidding me,

Kia Kamgar: So listeners? What you think?

Sebestian Ong: All in one, this is like coaching, management, operations, marketing, sales, branding.

Kia Kamgar: It's all in one again, you know, going back to what I was saying at the beginning and the whole idea when I posted that post, because I had this idea for the past year or so year and a half, I just didn't know how to formulate it.

I didn't know whether it would work and I'm like, you know what? Just give it a go. Now I've got the time. People know who I am and what I do. Let's get who I am, what I do with someone else. Right.

Because then it's helping me helping them, helping me kind of thing. It's it's, you know, and, and again, there's no music, there's no sales there's no. Who are you? Uh, all that bull will be in the show notes, obviously, but I'm not going to be.

I said it didn't I? I said a podcast thing. Fuck, I don't want it to be a podcast. I want it to be a fly on the wall. Someone listening to a conversation.

Sebestian Ong: Well done you. That's your brand, that's you?

Kia Kamgar: Thank you. Honestly, this is such validation from people. It's not like making my head bigger. I'm just saying it's nice to finally kind of come up with something that like, okay, well, someone that someone else likes it. Okay. Well then it works

Let's carry on

Sebestian Ong: The best brands are the brands that is done without any effort?

Kia Kamgar: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. That's very true.

Sebestian Ong: Think about that! Good.

I bet you look through, look through the transcription for this, for this video I can already, I really heard three amazing slogan. You're going to use as your business. There's three, at least three in there.

Kia Kamgar: I'm struggling with that one. The one I came up with making your day into YOUR day,

Sebestian Ong: too difficult to get. I mean, I can understand that because my English is my mother tongue I get that.

Kia Kamgar: Yeah

Sebestian Ong: but you want something simpler? You've went through the transcription for this. If you can, let me look through it. There's three points where I was going to it. This is it. This is it. This is his line. He stays black and white silhouettes.

One of the cartoon cartoon character. And just this line below, that's it. That's your brand. Nothing else. You need nothing else. You

Kia Kamgar: know what? We've got, uh, two just over two hours. For me two hours. Yeah. It's great. See, this is the thing I like it's a conversation because you don't know how long it's taken.

That's what podcast that's what a podcast used to be. It wasn't a TV show or a bells and whistles and all that crap. It's just annoying. But anyway

Sebestian Ong: thank you so much for this.

Kia Kamgar: Absolutely. I thank you so much for this and thank you for your patience.

Sebestian Ong: Thank you for the insights.

Kia Kamgar: Well, you too. I mean, I, I, honestly, I learned quite a lot.

Definitely. I'm going to definitely read the transcripts. I will send you everything. I can. We'll talk at another time, not after this, but before I do anything and, uh, thanks for being here.

Sebestian Ong: Thank you for having me. It's been fun

Kia Kamgar: see you next time

Sebestian Ong: take care

Kia Kamgar: definitely next time

Sebestian Ong: definitely

all right, man, take care. Have a good day.

You too, bye!

Kia Kamgar: See you later, ciao.

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