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Conversation with Elizabeth Pampalone

Elizabeth is one of those rare finds. She’s a marketing expert that knows exactly where the clients need to be and how to get here. She has been a client of mine in the past and has implemented Tech Minimalism into her email workflow, but what struck me was how knowledgeable she is and how she likes to share that knowledge.

Our Conversation here took us on a journey through how one can make use of their network, digital assets and social platforms to gain a ‘tribe’ to follow your teachings and content.


You’ll find Elizabeth via LinkedIn and her website:

Elizabeth’s website: https://getabsolutemarketing.com
Elizabeth’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabethpampalone

Transcript

Kia Kamgar: [00:00:00] So I've known Elizabeth Pampalona for quite a while now she was actually a client of mine. I think it was last year or so. Um,

But she does this amazing thing with, uh, creating your social network calendar, I guess, in a day for the year.

And it kind of blows my mind that she's able to do this is a fantastic conversation. I really do hope you enjoy it.

If you have any questions, let me know. And all her information will be down below.

Anyway, enjoy the conversation.

It's always weird to start conversations because sometimes it's kind of, you know, what do you speak about and stuff, but I love talking to you because when you were a client, uh, you had all these questions and it was awesome because it was like. She knows what she... firstly, she knows what she wants and she knows where she wants to go to.

And um, obviously recently you've said that you've, um, uh, use some of my, um, Tech Minimalism email thing. So talk to me about that. What have you actually implemented and stuff?

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:01:14] Well, I, this was, I guess over a year ago now. Um, yeah. And I heard you on Paul Miner's podcast.

Kia Kamgar: [00:01:26] Right ok

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:01:27] And he was like talking about email and I was just drowning in email.

I was like, I can't, I can't do this anymore. And I was listening to it like... I can't believe this is a real thing. And you were like, just archive, just archive.

And I was like, WHAT? He's off his nut!

Like, this is, this is crazy. Like you can't just archive it and like, hope that it stays there. You have to put it into a folder and you have to know who it's from and all that stuff.

Kia Kamgar: [00:01:59] Right

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:02:00] So I was, you know, like this is stupid. And then I said, okay, I'm going to try it for one week, just one week. And I did.

And then after a week I was like, this is the best system ever devised. Why does no one else talk about this?

Because it had reduced my decision-making. Like a hundred fold. It was crazy.

Kia Kamgar: [00:02:31] That's the, that's the thing. people... once people.. I was thinking about this this morning, actually, people are usually stuck in their ways.

The older you get, the more stuck in your way, you are kind of thing. I know this because I'm way older than you. But when I'm working with people, the issue always comes down to, um, I've always done it this way. I don't want to change. And the only time they change, which is what you're saying is...

This is too crazy. Let me give it a go.

And that that's the change, but before I'm not going to do it, it's not going to happen, et cetera, et cetera. So it's interesting that you went down that route as well. Because I hear that all the time.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:03:18] And I also think it comes down to like how and how much in how much pain are you.

Kia Kamgar: [00:03:23] Right.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:03:23] Right. Like, are you in enough pain? To do something about it. And you know, if you're sitting funny and your leg starts to hurt, you might sit there for a few more minutes. Because you just don't feel like you don't want to get up, you know? But then you're like, okay, now it's really starting to hurt. I need to get up like or whatever, you know, if you're doing something like that.

And so you, you kind of decide how much pain is enough pain for you to, to move or to do something different. And so I think what the email thing, um, it was kind of like, this is the pain you have, but there's no cure for it. So there's nothing you can do about it. And so then when this was brought up, I was like, that would make things easier, but it doesn't seem plausible.

Like it's like, it's a possible thing to do and still be effective later on because all of the email stuff is about later on, right? It's about how do I find something in six months when I need it?

How do I find something when that person is like, Oh, you emailed it to you. And you're like, I don't have it, you know, but you do because it's in there.

So, um, that's definitely, definitely one

Kia Kamgar: [00:04:32] It's not to dissimilar to what you do. You have a system as well with, uh, with your marketing. Um, was it, um, something in a day? Was it a website in a day and then you have, um, social media for a year or something. I mean, that blows my mind. I haven't been through it or anything.

I think I might have to, uh, cause I'm kind of struggling with that kind of thing. But, um, the problem for me is that I don't like automation. Um, but with some things you kind of have to automate. I understand that. So how do you do that and how do you get people to change their minds to actually say right, I'm going to sit down and do all of this.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:05:14] It's that pain thing again?

Kia Kamgar: [00:05:16] Yeah.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:05:16] It's, I'm doing something. I think it's right. I've been told it's right. But it doesn't make me feel good doing it. It doesn't make me feel like I'm doing the right thing, even though I've been told it is right. And it's what I should do. And so this happens a lot with social media and marketing in general.

Um, people just, they get in these holes where this guru told them this and that guru told them that, and they're supposed to be on Facebook and they're supposed to post three times a day and all these things.

And, and then that's not really what they're supposed to do at all. They might be Instagram only, or LinkedIn only and could thrive there.

Um, you know, and so I try to get people to look at it from a practical standpoint. It's like marketing is about practicality. It's not about, you know, whatever fluff you can get out there, whatever the gurus are telling you.

So if it comes down to practicality, well, what's practical. Why do we need to spend 30 days, six weeks, three months on a website. When, if we actually just sat down, took out all the other distractions, you could get it done in a day for most small businesses, you know, it doesn't need to be complicated.

I have a company that, um, that I work with, uh, that I actually purchased from that I'm a customer of, they're not my client, but I'm their customer.

And I want to...

Kia Kamgar: [00:06:39] That's always the best client, isn't it? That's always the best client.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:06:43] Yeah, just these dog bones. And they're really good in my, my dog loves them and I had run out and I said, you know, Hey, I want to purchase these. And she was like, Oh, well, our website's still trying to get up.

And I had purchased three bags before and she had like, had me Venmo her, which was like, okay, your website's working.

You're working through that. I get it. It's been three months.

Kia Kamgar: [00:07:09] Wow.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:07:10] And she, I had to do the same process...

Kia Kamgar: [00:07:13] Right

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:07:13] And I was like, that's not acceptable. And I told her that I was like, your company, whoever's doing this for you. That's not acceptable. And I know that you're busy and the company she's running is amazing.

She actually employees, um, people who have mental disabilities and physical disabilities. And I thought that was great. Like she's doing this great work, but then she's leaving her own business kind of to kind of go to the dogs. And she's just not really paying attention to it.

And, and I see that she's focused on the work and she does have business, but at the same time, what happens when some company drops her or clients stop being able to communicate with her because she doesn't have the right channels available.

And so her website, isn't just easy for me to go, Hey, you have a dog. Yogi would love these treats. Let me send you the website. I'd have to say, Oh, you have to call her. And then there's this process with Venmo and then there's no tracking number. You just kind of have to wait for them to arrive.

You know, those kind of things get, you know, they freak me out that people don't pay attention enough to it.

Kia Kamgar: [00:08:21] Where it kind of in the same pool there, because I'm all about user experience and making sure... I was speaking about this in last week's conversation with Sebastian Ong who's, uh, who's also, uh, digital marketer, strategist and stuff.

I like having a good user experience. I do. So if I do it running my business, being a coach and a consultant, I want to do everything I can for my client to be easy.

And just like you, it kind of boggles my mind that other consultants and coaches have completely useless... as you say, websites, they're social. Thing their tech stack. That's my world basically. I'm completely amazed by people that don't do this maybe we're... maybe we're just too passionate for all this and we should be doing something else.

I don't know. It's just weird because I like talking to people like you who know their business and passionate about it can help people about it. But do you also get the same problem as I do where I call it square wheels syndrome.

So people like pushing that cart with that square wheel and you're like, Hey dude, I've got a wheel here. Do you, you know, I could save you time and effort and whatever. Do you also have that issue as well?

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:09:46] Yeah. And I think what happens is that, you know, We do have a little bit of an advantage because we're in the tech space. So we have one foot in that tech space and one foot in the consultant world.

And what I find is that a lot of people that are in this position, that, that just say, well, I'll make it work. I'll make it work.

Is because they have put all their capacity of their brain. It's like a hard drive. You know, it only has so much room. It only has so much capacity.

They put all their capacity from their brain into their business.

The problem with this is they put it into the doing of their business, not into the running of their business.

Kia Kamgar: [00:10:26] Running of their business. You're right. Yes.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:10:27] And there, we're still in this maker mode, they're still in this.

I've got to do all the work mode.

And what you have to do is you have to segment and say... one day a week, I don't take clients like this is the most simple way to do this to say one day a week. I don't take clients.

Fridays are my admin day. Mondays are my admin day.

And when I heard that in the past, I was like,

You're crazy...

You can't do it that way. Clients need you on Fridays. Clients need you on Mondays.

There are exceptions. You can take a client on a Monday or a Friday if you absolutely must.

But the chances are, if you tell them... I'm open Tuesday through Friday for client calls. They're going to be like, okay, I can do Wednesday.

You know, they're going to fit themselves into that. If they can't and you really want to work with them, then that's your call to make and say, all right, I'm going to make the exception. I'm going to work with you at night, work with you on a Saturday, whatever.

But because they're so focused on the doing the actual product, getting out, and they're not focused on the running, they're going to basically find themselves with no infrastructure.

And then when they grow, because they will, because they're focused on the doing and the doing is the thing that makes you grow right? The doing is the thing that gets word of mouth out there and expands you.

And if they're focused on that, then they're going to grow. And then when they grow, they're going to look back at their admin.

Which is them, which there's no one there and they're going to go, well, why can't I run this business now? What what's going on?

Because now they're being pulled out of the doing, being shoved into the admin. And there was no infrastructure. It's like saying, okay, now we're going to start. You know, like when people first came to America, they were like, all right, we're going to start moving goods.

There were no roads. There were no bridges. It took forever. They had to use boats and go way around, like, so there was no infrastructure. And they had to build that infrastructure and they didn't just all of a sudden go, man, it's really hard to get goods around the country. We should build roads.

They were like, Hey, I need to get from my house to your house. Let's make a road.

Kia Kamgar: [00:12:30] It's it's, it's interesting because I have the same kind of thing. I call it foundation for your business coming from the tech side of things. So I find it weird that no one has a foundation, whether you're an individual working for yourself, small team, or, you know, medium sized businesses, which is what I do.

And you go in and you say, well, yeah, what is your foundation? If you don't have a foundation, just like a house you can't build on top of it. Just exactly what you're saying. So then like...

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:13:01] That's not their expertise though. And that's what I get. And that's where they go. It's too much for me.

Kia Kamgar: [00:13:07] I completely agree with you.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:13:09] They go back to their comfort zone.

Kia Kamgar: [00:13:11] Problem... yeah. That's the, that's the issue of the comfort zone is such a problem for everybody. I mean, for me as well for certain things, right. Everyone has it, but I guess it is because it's our passion or my passion in this, in this space to go in and say, what the hell are you doing?

It's like when you take your car to the garage, um, you know, I know about cars a little, but anyway, when he used to take my car to the garage when did you put oil in it? And you're like, don't know. And they look at you and tut so on, you know? Yeah.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:13:46] They're like, gosh, that's the most common, that's the most easy thing you could know.

Kia Kamgar: [00:13:51] Right. Exactly. So we... but the person doesn't know. So we kind of do the same thing in our mind. Not necessarily out. We do do it. I do it. A bit too often out in the open maybe but...

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:14:07] It's your blessing and your curse.

Kia Kamgar: [00:14:09] Yeah. I mean, you know,

I come from a space of love, not from annoyance.

But yeah, but you know, sometimes . You gotta, I, again, I said this before...

No question is a stupid question.

Unless you ask me three times,

then I'm... I'm calling you out, that's it.

I'm just calling you out on it.

Um, and I've kind of become known for that in a way for good or for worse, but yeah, with me, it's kind of no BS let's work and get it done.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:14:41] Um, I think though that's what we just talked about. I mean, that, that's something that, to kind of focus on is that, you know, we get into these comfort zones and, you know, we don't know what else is out there.

We don't know what we don't know. And when I work with clients on this exact thing, when they get to this point where they're like.

You say to them, okay, where is your website hosted? And they're like, Oh, I don't know. It's on the thing. It's on the thing. And you know, and they go, I'm like, okay, well where's your domain.

And they go, well, it's with the website. Right. And they they're like right. They cause they don't know.

And what I try to do to get this across. Yeah. We can go ahead and we can figure it out. We can dig around in their emails and find something.

But the point I try to make during this process of them trying to struggle to find something like this, or find a password or whatever, I use their own business as an analogy for what I'm dealing with right now.

Kia Kamgar: [00:15:35] Right.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:15:36] And I say, you know, like in your business, when your clients do X, Y, and Z, yeah. That's what this is like. And they're like, Oh, I hate it when that happens. Or I don't like it when they do that or they should know these things.

And I say, yes, that is exactly what we're doing right now is that you don't know the answers to these questions. And it's just like when your clients don't know the answers to those questions that you ask. And they do the light bulb just, Oh, and now they're like super focused on.

Kia Kamgar: [00:16:06] I it's funny because I kind of do the same thing. Um, so if someone's an artist or whatever, they do, lawyer, whatever, because I, in the MacJunky days, I used to get asked all the time.

How much is it going to take? How long is it going to be? Like, well, I don't know. I need to see the device to see what's going on. So the analogy I use now, especially with via email or call, if I, if the person's not here is I usually say to them...

Would you call a garage and say, my car is making a funny noise. Can he tell me how much it costs?

You know, the garage is going to laugh at you, worst case scenario, or they're just going to say, well, I need to see it. And then all of a sudden switch go, Oh yeah, of course.

It's the same, you know, fix a plumber. Uh, there's water leaking, know you're on the phone. Yeah. And how can I help? I need to come and see it what's going on.

And I hope that people understand this, but when you're in a situation of, um, urgency in the MacJunky days, urgency, you're like, just get it fixed, you know? But I think now with my, the pivot that I've made is slightly different in a way. So it's a little bit easier.

Um, but yeah, that is a struggle for a lot of consultants. Definitely.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:17:33] The other thing is though, like with, with what I do and that's, that kind of goes to what you're saying is that people think it should take longer. That's the, one of the struggles I have is they think that it should take, well, if you can do it in one day, if you can create 365 social posts in a day...

Kia Kamgar: [00:17:52] I'm still baffled that you can do that by the way.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:17:58] So like saying that something is, Oh, it's only $99 and they're like, well, is that valuable enough? It's not $497, are you sure that's good enough?

And the thing is, is sometimes things need to, you know, you need the time you need, like you said, sometimes it takes what it takes other times. It's like, why is it taking everyone else so long?

This should be simple. And I think a lot of the things you do with the tech stack and condensing that for people and helping people to not necessarily use less tools. Because sometimes you need more tools in order to actually get your job done, but to actually have the right tools in place. And, and that's the same thing I do with the email marketing and then the social, and it just takes one.

For me, it takes one day. Like they don't need to labor over this the way they should be laboring over other things. Like, should I be using a CRM or not? Those are things. Those are questions that take sometimes longer to answer. But the fact that you need to crank out some content, you need to fix your website.

Those things should be simple, cut and dry moving on because those have concrete answers. The other stuff, you know, some of the stuff you work on, it doesn't have as much concrete answers sometimes because it's about your personality. How do you feel about this? How do you work with these things?

Whereas what I'm using, what I'm doing, it's like math. It's like, this is exactly the same. Like the cancer's is the same every time, right?

Kia Kamgar: [00:19:23] Yeah. It's this, this is the formula. Let's just put it into practice for you.

Yeah, it's interesting. But again, like with, with my, I mean, you were following each other obviously, uh, and you probably see a lot of crap that I post and you're probably going, Oh my God, he needs the help, so, okay.

But, um, but the thing with me when I first started in this new thing, um, it was more to do with being top of minds. And I wanted it to come from me rather than a system and a system in the sense. So, you know, when you, when you post on Twitter and when you post on LinkedIn, whatever via, um, let's just use Buffer because everyone knows Buffer.

Um, it actually shows up it's from buffer. Okay. Fantastic. Not many people look at that, but my perfectionism is I will look at that. So I know other people would look at it, although...

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:20:19] And then I say progress over perfection.

Kia Kamgar: [00:20:23] Okay. Exactly. I completely, the thing is the perfectionist thing. Yeah. The perfection of thing has kind of ruins me to a certain degree, but going back to...

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:20:36] Everybody has though.

Kia Kamgar: [00:20:37] Yeah

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:20:38] I think you're, you're, you're, you're showing that, you know, even your clients, my clients, you, me, we all have, like, we all have something that we go. It has to be perfect, even though we know it doesn't, even though we know it almost doesn't matter, but in our minds it stops us from moving forward in some cases.

Kia Kamgar: [00:20:58] Yeah. That's so true. I mean, so going back to like publishing the stuff that I do, I draw the post it myself now. Again, I don't work that many hours during the day as you know, so I have plenty of time.

So if someone says to me, okay, can we do this? Yeah. Whatever, if I want to do it. So for me to take time away, it's not too much of a problem, but for a lot of people, it is a problem because it's like, I want to work with my clients.

Now, I want to circle back to what you were saying about

your clients are too busy working for their clients

and not enough for their business.

Well, my take is.

Well if they had their tech stack fixed...

you wouldn't have that problem.

Right?

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:21:52] You'd have less of that problem, I think, um, because then they'd have to learn the tech stack and they have to use it and they'd have to incorporate into their, their daily life.

And I think this is where people get stuck. And that's why my system takes some of that out of the tech stack in a way. It's not saying you need to use this system every single day for it to be effective. Like you have to do with a CRM.

I am the worst person. I've tried every CRM on the planet and they, none of them work for me because I, my brain doesn't work that way.

I have my own version of it. I have my own system, which works fine, but I've tried all the ones because I've had the shiny object syndrome, like, Oh, that one looks cool. Oh, that one does this. And I'm just like, you know, downloading and trialing.

And I've had so many emails where they're like, your payment doesn't work. And I'm like, yeah, because I never put it in.

Um, but, like I've done so many trials that, you know, it's become this thing where, you know, sometimes you do need to stick with that standard piece, but you need to fix other areas. And I think you've done that with the tech stacks as well, where there may be that one piece that you could automate, you could put into a system, but is it really going to fit?

And I always ask clients, is, is it going to fit your lifestyle?

And that's what I do with the, um, with the social media stuff. It's like,

what is going to fit your lifestyle? People say, Oh, I'm going to blog every week. That's what I want to do. I want to sit down and write a blog every week.

And I'm like, okay, is that going to actually fit your lifestyle? How many hours a week do you have right now to blog? And they're like, Oh, well, none, but I'm going to make it, I'm going to fit it in.

I said, well, you're not. If you try to write 12 right now, and we write 12 today, you have one a month. If you feel like writing more. More the merrier more content the better.

But if you don't feel like writing, more if you decide you want to go to the beach, instead, if you decide you are taking the week off and you're, you know, you have family issues or you, you get sick or whatever, you don't have to worry that your business stops because you stopped. So I think that's something that... yeah.

Kia Kamgar: [00:24:00] That's perfect because I never thought of it that way.

Um, my daily routine is wake up. What shall I do today? That's that is it. I don't have kind of a system. So making my daily videos was basically only thing I had to do. Right. And they don't take that long for me. I walk my dog in the morning, which is like 10 o'clock first walk. I think of the idea. I think of a few ideas, come back and record it.

And from the time I sit and start recording, it takes about 30 minutes. So it's not too much. So I see that as, okay, I got to do 30 minutes minute, at least 30 days, 30 minutes of work this day, you know, today that's the only thing.

The problem I have with that idea of sitting down to write 12 blog posts or 12 videos. In my case, I couldn't do it. I simply couldn't do it. Even though I have plenty...

you've seen the lest right. In one of my videos, I have plenty of ideas, but I couldn't sit there and just bash them out. I don't know why. And there's the perfectionism in me. I'm wearing the same clothes for 12 videos.

No. That's not going to work.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:25:23] Now here's the thing I would say though. Here's the thing I would say. Let's say you did the 12th. Okay. This is your one backup per month.

Kia Kamgar: [00:25:33] Yeah. That's that's one way. Yeah, that's it.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:25:36] Then you're not wearing the same clothes. I mean, you only have so many clothes, right? So you're only wearing the same thing once a month.

If you used your backup once a month.

Yeah. Once

Kia Kamgar: [00:25:49] a month is not an issue. I wear this, I have kind of like seven sets and I cycled them. So it's not three hats, you know? Yeah. That's I never thought of it that way. That's kind of an interesting way of thinking about it.

But I mean, it's, as you said, as we speak, speaking about, it's really hard to change the way you're already working, like me doing these videos for the past year or so two years, maybe daily for the past year I dunno. Um, I'm actually, that's actually going to be changing probably as well. Um, I don't know. I'm going to say, because I really love making these daily videos.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:26:27] I like them. I think that they're very powerful and very impactful. And I think you do a good job of giving content, enough content without it being too long, without it being too complicated.

I would say some of the videos I would, I would like to see more, not a lot, but a little bit more like here's a technique or here's a right. Not necessarily how to, but like, so here's the topic we're talking about and this is the part of, this is the system I've used for that with clients or in my own tech stack.

So like specifically shouting out companies, like what, like we're at right now, we're recording on Ecamm Live.

If you're talking about making daily videos, and you're saying that, you know, if you're going to be recording videos or you're, you know, talking to people about how they could do something similar or whatever here, here's one of the things I use. Um, or whatever. So I think just throwing in a few more, you know, almost like endorsements, but not right.

Kia Kamgar: [00:27:25] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, um, I tried hard not to do that. It's weird because it's, it's a great, I'm not talking about. Uh, financial income here, but it's a great passive income in a sense if to do that, but I've tried to purposely stay away from that in a way, because what works with some, for someone doesn't work for the other person.

Right.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:27:56] Right. But I think it also give the opportunity since they're not working with you yet. Right. I think it's good to say this has worked for clients. You know, this is one option because then it's like, I could try that one option. I could at least explore it and not think to myself. Well, there's no other way.

Like I did with the email. There's no other way. This is just the way that it is. Um, but really there was other options. And that wasn't a specific, you know, program or anything, but there were other options and I just needed to be exposed to those options.

So I think like that tech talking about like specific techniques, cause like you said, you don't want to endorse necessarily, but if there's a program, you know, that's out there that is helpful or that, you know yeah.

Well, when you do this, you have to use a program like email marketing, you gotta use a program. You can't just, you know, send it through your regular email. So things like that I think would be good to.

Kia Kamgar: [00:28:53] Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, again, the, my content strategy is kind of changing as you've probably noticed a little, um, before, when I first started these, they were how tos, here's my things. Here's my to do list. Here's my Basecamp.

But I got to a stage where I actually, I got to a stage where I said I wanted to make, um, courses. Everyone was doing courses. I thought I'd do courses. But then I thought, no, several reasons everyone's doing courses.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:29:23] Yeah.

Kia Kamgar: [00:29:23] That's the first reason I said, I don't want to, because everyone's doing it.

Second thing was, I said, I'm too lazy to make these courses. Right. Um, I attempted it and I tried it and it works. I mean, I can do it, so that's not an issue, but the laziness part comes. It wasn't the laziness part. But once you create a course, as you know, depending on what you're doing, it's out of date.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:29:51] Yeah.

Kia Kamgar: [00:29:51] Right.

So that was. Excuse me.

So that was, um, an issue that kind of the out of date and most of it. And then I thought, well, why am I thinking it's out of date? What, what was the reasoning? Why I was thinking, I strategize over this stuff all the time. Uh, every thought process, the perfectionism thing, but that helps with what I do. So that's okay. But anyway.

So then I thought, well, why, why am I making that decision of not because, and it was mainly to do is because I like working with people, working with one on one with someone because their system is different. So if I make a course, a generic course, okay, it's good for money, but it's not to me the way I see it. It's not helping anyone. Although I know it does. I mean,

EP membership productsElizabeth Pampalone: [00:30:44] I had the same thoughts, so I I'm in the same boat with you, however, there are people. So, okay. For example, I have a, I do group sessions for my, my system. I do a four hour group session once a month in my group, in my membership. It's not cheap. It's not super expensive.

It's not as expensive as my normal one-on-one sessions, but it's, you know, it's middle of the road option. So my membership is free. That's your entry-level. That's like, I can afford three. Right then there's free stuff in there. Then there's courses that are $99. You don't get to in a second. And then there's this monthly half a day call.

Kia Kamgar: [00:31:29] Right.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:31:30] And it's a group call. And in, in my mind, if you're thinking about it, I want to help this person fully. Then they need to do a one-on-one day. If they're coming to this half day group called, they really need to do a one-on-one day. But what I found was. If they made the decision to invest in this half day group call, which they know is going to be group, they know is not going to be one-on-one attention.

Yeah. I might answer their questions, but I'm not going to be able to help them the way I would with a full day. That's just seeing them. I helped them write a lot of the content. I helped them create a lot of these things. We go back and forth. It's a whole day of questions and answers. And what if this, and what if we try that and all this stuff brainstorming all day long.

This is a group call though. I've got to appeal to 5, 6, 7, 10, 12 people. And if someone's going to invest in that, they know they need something. Right. And so that's where I actually find a lot of my clients come from they'll fit.

That's in this kind of expensive ish thing. That they might not really, you know, might put it on a credit card or something and they might be like, Oh, it's a little bit more than I wanted to spend, but I'm going to do it.

I need to do something. Then when they actually get in there and they see that the system works for themselves, they see that it can be accomplished. But with the group call, right, they're not getting that one-on-one attention. They're not getting as much done as they could in a full day with me. And that four hours turns into a third, a quarter, an eighth of what they could have gotten done in a one-on-one day.

Right. Even though it was a half a day, it's only a small fraction of what they know could be accomplished. If they worked with me, one-on-one they go, Oh, I should've just done. I'm just going to do the day. And so I find that happens. I find that happens with courses too, because people will take this $99 course.

They'll watch all the videos.

They'll look at it and they'll go...

I can't do this by myself.

It's not possible.

And then they're like...

But I know that she knows what she's talking about because I've seen everything I've read everything.

I see that it could work, but I need someone to hold my hand.

Kia Kamgar: [00:33:43] This is like gold.

This is, because basically you've just explained something to me that someone else tried to explain to me.

And I didn't quite understand it even before well, before, the thing is before they told me, I didn't know anything about this whatsoever,

then they explained it and then they understood the concept,

but it didn't understand it in context.

So, and you've just explained the step. Um, he said to me, he said to me, what's your product? I said, well, I do my videos for free. Okay, great. Perfect. What's your next product? What's your, what's the next step? Well they just hire me like, yeah. How much are they? How much do you charge for them to hire you? Gave him the price he goes well, going from free to this price is just too much.

And what you've done is created the steps. But what you've just explained is in context, what those steps mean? That to me is gold so already. Okay, bye.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:34:49] And that will be, um, but no, like the, the thing about that is I hate the word like funnel, right? I don't like the word funnel because it just sounds like you're pouring people into like a bottle.

It just, yeah, it's just weird. And so I, I like that there are these steps because some people need to make an investment to know that they're serious to know that they're serious. You know, you might say, yeah, you're serious or not. You think you're ready, but they're, they don't know if they're serious and when they make this small investment, then they go.

Okay. Yes, I really need to do this. I can do it because I've already made a little bit of an investment. I know I could actually make a big investment and it would work great. Now if they make a small investment and they're still like, Ooh, I don't know if that means they're not ready yet. And that's fine.

We don't want them if they're not ready, we don't want them to do something. That's going to make them more anxious, more upset, you know, just more frazzled. We don't want that. So that's a good thing for them to know. They have to test those waters. So I think having, like, I think your steps could even be a really low priced course.

It's just videos. Yeah. Might get outdated over time. You can go in and swap out a few videos every now and again, add a few things. I add stuff to my courses all the time. If you've purchased it, once you get all the new stuff that I change and add and update or whatever.

And then I, and then I would even have like, like you have your calls and stuff have like a quick 9, like a 90 minute. Um, very specific or 30 minute or whatever you want to do, but that's not, it's like a discounted price of what you normally do, but it's like a one-time thing. It's like a, we're going to run through your tech stack. You're going to show me everything you're paying for. And I'm going to tell you what to get rid of one and that's it.

Like, it's just going to be a top level. Surface-y kind of deal. And then when they're like, wow, no, I really could use more help with this. Like that was just too fast or whatever. Then it's like, okay, this is the full thing. And this is the higher, you know, this is the package and et cetera.

Kia Kamgar: [00:36:54] I, I did try that. I did do that. I called it, um, I called it something, I can't even remember, um, discovery session. I called it. Um,

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:37:05] I think those with discovery, the word discovery session is like two. If it was like. You know, you're going to get XYZ out of this.

Kia Kamgar: [00:37:16] Yeah, that's what I was getting to. Um, I think again, I'm not a marketeer.

I'm not a, I'm a sales person. I can sound, I'm not a marketeer. I'm not good at that stuff. I don't, well, I don't think I am. I mean, I know what I like and what I do. Okay. Well, thank you. But the point is I do what I like to do without it being salesy, if that's marketing fantastic, but that's not my, that, wasn't my intention. Basically.

I need to get work in. Everyone's a salesperson, every con, consultant, every client, every business, every body who works for themselves has to wear different hats. And they are the sales person. They are the person in the warehouse. They are the marketeer. You have to wear all these hats.

And there are people like us to help them understand parts of that. Right.

But I'm not, not a marketeer. I have to wear the hat and I do as much as I can. And that's what a lot of people do do. So you need to hire out. If you want to go anywhere with your business, you need to hire out the expert.

And when you please, for the love of Jesus, God, whatever, if you hire someone like us, don't tell us what to do.

I hate that. And I want to make sure that's out there because...

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:38:41] I actually combat that with something. I combat that with them. When someone says to me, I want you to do they say, I know what I want. They're not mine. I know they're not my client. And I say to them, well, let me just make something clear. I'm not your order taker.

Kia Kamgar: [00:39:00] Nope.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:39:02] I don't, you don't say, Hey, I want a cheeseburger with fries. And I say, okay, here you go. I want a website to look exactly like this other website over here. And I say, okay, here you go. That's not how it works.

I say, I'm not an order taker. And I say, and if they do it within the session, which is really tough because they will do that within the session.

They'll say, I just want you to do this. Can't you just do that?

And I'll say that...

um, I, there's some difficult clients that I've worked with. I would say probably one out of 10. I mean, it's, it's not as much as, you know, as you might think, but it's, it's a good number. Um, and they'll just get to this point where they're just frustrated.

I'm asking them questions, I'm making them think I'm digging a little into their business and they don't, they don't want that. Um, and so they'll say that to me, they'll be like, can't you just do this and I'll say you have paid me X number of dollars for my professional opinion. I've just given you my professional opinion and you've decided to go against that 100%.

I don't care what it looks like, how it functions. I don't care. This is yours. And if you ultimately make the decision A over decision B, which I've given you and you make your own decision, A, I will do that for you because I told you that when you came here, we would finish X project. We'd have a website or whatever.

Kia Kamgar: [00:40:32] Right.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:40:33] But I will not agree with it. My professional opinion is the opposite of this. And remember you hired me and you're paying me and I put the number again, X number of dollars. Sometimes it's up to $10,000.

Kia Kamgar: [00:40:48] Wow.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:40:49] And paid that hit people, hitting people with a number like that. They're like, Ooh, right.

It's like you pay me $10,000 for my advice and my expertise. To make this the best I can be for you. I don't care what it looks like. I have my business over here. This is about you. I don't have to put their stuff in my portfolio. I don't have to say I ever worked with them.

Kia Kamgar: [00:41:10] No.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:41:11] I don't have to put my name on anything they have.

So if they don't want to do something for themselves, that's better than what they have or what they had or what they thought they wanted. When I know that it's not going to be good for them at all.

I've had people say to me, I'm not changing my logo. It is the way it is. And now I'd say to people, if you're a little goes that way, I'm not taking you as a client, you either have to fix it. Here are some suggestions. If you don't fix it, you have to work with me to fix it and then we'll move forward. Otherwise I'm not taking you.

But if those people in that time period, and they like in that session, they're like, well, I want it this color. And that's just the way it's going to be. I said, okay, I've given you my professional opinion. I basically just piloting. I'm like, I'll wash your hands with this.

Kia Kamgar: [00:41:55] We spoke about this in last conversation. Um, The Conversation I had with Seb last week about saying no and no is so powerful for, especially for what we do, because we get to that stage where like, you know, do we really want to work with this client?

Is the project I mean, this is definitely what I think is the project something that I want to do. Is it somebody who's actually going to listen to my professional opinion? Because as you say, they're paying you so much money to do this, and then they're saying, can you do this? I'm like, why are you telling me, why did you hire me?

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:42:33] Right.

Kia Kamgar: [00:42:33] And I have had that conversation and I have walked away from clients and given their money back. It's like, you know, it's just not going to work. The other thing I do...

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:42:42] I did the exact same thing a few weeks ago with like a five figure client. And I worked with them for four days of their five. And I basically was like, I'm reducing your final bill for the final day, because I'm not even going to show up for the final day because I couldn't, everything.

I tried everything I did made it worse almost because they, they were so entrenched in this system they had, and we ended up spending. We're supposed to spend one day on each thing, right? One day on website, one day on brand, blah, blah, blah, whatever. And we ended up spending four days on their website.

Kia Kamgar: [00:43:23] WOW, that's just being picky.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:43:27] It was, it was crazy, but it was because of the system that they were. Like, I don't usually take people with systems in this way. Like if they already have a system, I'm like, no, you need to work in this system. It's better. Blah, blah, blah. They were like, so entrenched. They're like, we can't, we have to do this.

And I was like, all right, I'll help you. And that was my bad for taking the client, but it was one of those things where I had to literally walk away and I've never done that before. And then another client emailed me and he was like, Hey, here's my logo. What do you think? And I was like, nope, it's not good.

You have elements that are good, change this. And I gave him literally a basically free advice, change these five things and it'll be perfect.

Kia Kamgar: [00:44:05] Yeah.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:44:06] He changed nothing. And he was like, here it is. I changed it. I'm like, NO!

Kia Kamgar: [00:44:12] Welcome to the world of tech, my, my world of tech. I mean, I also have, the problem with what I do. I mean, we're in the similar kind of business and consulting stuff, but our clientele is different. Our work is kind of different.

The problem I have and I've come to realize this may be too late, later, not too late, but later is that you, you can't change people's system sometimes most of the time actually. So you got to kind of work around it or not work with them.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:44:47] Right.

Kia Kamgar: [00:44:48] They're open for change.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:44:51] Yep.

Kia Kamgar: [00:44:52] I'm open to work with them. Absolutely. A hundred percent may even give them a discount, but if they're not open for any kind of change, then why you asking for help from anybody? Why on earth are you asking for help?

But what I've come to understand? And in fact, Jason Fried of Basecamp wrote about this, I think, or he said something about this, uh, about Basecamp, about their products is that they don't try to change anyone's mind.

He said, when you writing copy on your website, when I write copy on my website, he, I, what you, your job to make them nod in agreement with you not to change their mind.

And once I understood what that meant, it's working. So I changed my website text. I changed the way I speak to my clients while I'm working with my clients.

So when you, they nod in agreement into anything you do or say, then they're a good client in the sense that they, you know, whatever you do will actually work. You know...

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:46:05] That they're ready.

Kia Kamgar: [00:46:06] That they're ready. Exactly.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:46:09] And that's the thing. I think people, some people never are ready. And there, they would never be a good client, even though they say out of this side of the mouth, they want all these things that other, that side of their brain they're like, no, no, no, no, no, never, never.

And they don't realize that there's this, this, you know, pull on them. That's telling them not to do something, even though they really do need it. Um, like with that client, I had to walk away from, they needed to change their system. They needed to move to a simpler option. They needed to fix some deep rooted things.

They had paid a lot of money for, and I was uncovering and showing them like, look at this mess, like, you can't live like this, you can't run your business like this. And they were like, Oh my gosh, we didn't even know like, Oh my gosh, we were ignoring this. Cause they were like, we know you're right. That they had been covered.

Like just to sit over there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was just, I can't continue to help you because you're not letting me and you know, what's wrong, but you won't fix it. And so when I walked away from that, it was, I keep getting emails from them. They're like, Well, what if we worked on this and what if we did this?

And I'm like, when you're ready to do, do it the right way, I'll help you. But otherwise you glad you did that.

Kia Kamgar: [00:47:17] I do that all the time. So this whole pandemic thing, right? Everyone's clambering uh, you know, just running to try to find the right systems and stuff.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:47:27] Yeah.

Kia Kamgar: [00:47:27] So they ask you for advice. They, you give them the advice.

This is even before they've hired you. And then they say, okay, well, thanks. Then they go away and do the complete, absolute fucking opposite. And they come back to you two months later, three months later and said, you know, it hasn't worked. Can you, now, if it's a nice client or the way they are asking, I have worked with them. But generally I say no.

Because you don't trust me. You went and did something else and then you're coming and now it's just going to cost you more. It's not going to be the same. I got to untangle it. It's going to take longer. Forget the money side of things. Things will have to change, but because you weren't ready in the beginning, you're probably not ready now.

So anything I do for the better, you're still not going to like, and then you're going to write a bad review or not recommend to me or whatever it is, then what's the point.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:48:27] Those four days we spent on that website, the person still likes me, which I don't know how, but it wasn't mean or anything, but she, she still like, she still emails me and says, Oh, can we work on this together?

She likes the way I work, but her colleagues were helping keep everything in a mess. But anyway, so the four days we worked on that website, almost nothing is what we did. It's all been changed since then. And that was only a month ago.

Kia Kamgar: [00:48:57] Well, I mean, that's a lot of money that people spend for nothing. For nothing.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:49:02] And that's why I couldn't continue because I could have done the other day. I could have done it on the other day with her. I could have taken that extra money and been like, yeah, I got some more, but conscious, conscious. I couldn't do it with my conscience. I could not let that sit and go. I worked another day for no reason.

The third and fourth day I was even like, I should I even go, should I even try to continue? But I was like, I'm really trying to help. I'm trying to make this better. I'm doing everything I can. And on that fourth day, I'm like, we have to stop. We have to have a conference call. I have to tell you what's going on here.

What really is going on? I did all that. And that's when they were like, we know we just, we just can't do anything about it right now. And I was like, Oh, so it's just one of those things that you can't. If you have a good conscience, you can't just keep taking someone's money when you know, you're not helping them.

There's no point.

Kia Kamgar: [00:49:54] No,

Marker

I've had a couple of times that's happened. I mean, you also get things with clients. I had the, again, sometimes the client. So you go into a client, it's trying to get this out in a nice way, because it's so stupid that they, the clients do this. So you get a call from a client and said, we've worked with several people. Um, but nothing seems to work.

Like, okay, there's, there's already red flags going. So you get more into the core and you think, well, it's not the consultant. That was the issue from what I'm hearing, the way you're speaking about the past. I don't want you to speak like that about me. So no, because no matter what you do.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:50:42] Yup.

Kia Kamgar: [00:50:44] So, yeah, no.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:50:45] And I liken that to dating. I liken that to dating and I tell people that too, I'm like, you know, if they're acting like that, I was like, so you think you've had a lot of bad boyfriends here and they're like, Oh yeah. Ha ha. And I was like, actually, no, you're the crazy ex-girlfriend right.

Kia Kamgar: [00:51:04] Yeah.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:51:04] You're not, you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. You're not holding up your end of the bargain in the relationship. And so these people are leaving or you're kicking them out or whatever, and then you're stuck with a mess because 10 people have had their hands in this tech system or in your marketing or whatever.

And you have a mishmash now and you don't know what to do with it. So you hire another person to come in and put their hands and try to fix it. And it just becomes even more of a mess. So, yeah. So yeah, I totally get that.

Kia Kamgar: [00:51:34] It happens all the time. And it's just a shame. But again, going back to what you're saying, if you kind of talk to them in their setting, in their business, would you give your painting away for free or would you get anyone to say use a different color for your painting?

Of course not. You'd tell him to get the F, you know, but we're polite not to say that. We're just saying, you're paying us a lot of money for this information. If you don't want it. Firstly, why do you, why are you looking?

And second, why did you hire, I mean, you, you got to look and then hire you.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:52:10] And that's the thing, like when someone is seeking something, you're going to try and help them and you're going to give them information.

If they're not seeking, you don't have to give the information. You don't, you're not just out there going, Oh, you should definitely use this. I see that you're in trouble here. We don't go around doing that.

We just say. Oh, you said you're looking for a web designer. Oh, you said you've looked looking for someone to help you with your tech or you're giving me this pain point that I can clearly see as an issue.

I'm going to say, you know what, that's what I do. I'd love to help you out if you ever need it. And then they're like, Oh yeah, I probably do need some help, you know? But yeah, they have to be ready for that. They really do.

And I think that there's a lot of clients that we've been talking about a lot of the bad clients, but like you said, when those clients go to your website and like with mine, I have on there, it's like...

Are you overwhelmed by your marketing? Does social media gives you anxiety?

Those are the questions I asked first thing. And it's like, people are like, yes. The answer to those three questions is always yes for my clients. It's always yes.

Kia Kamgar: [00:53:12] Nodding in agreement that going back to the nodding in agreement.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:53:15] That's me. Yes. That's me. And immediately after that, I say, this is your answer.

And I just put in what my services are and they're like, Oh my gosh, this is my answer because you're using that suggestive. Yep. Yep. Yep. Oh, wait, this is the answer to that question.

Kia Kamgar: [00:53:32] I'm gonna change my site now!

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:53:36] So, but that's the thing is like, when you get that nod of agreement and you get the person going, you get me, like you really get me and they understand that you get them and they understand that you've been there. You've seen it. All their mess is not too big for you.

I actually used to be a professional organizer and I've been helping some of my friends recently with, with organizing their, their homes, their pantries, their kitchens, you know, little things like that.

And first of all, they were like, Oh, you don't want to see my mess? No, you don't want to come into my house. Oh, it's so bad. And I said, honey, listen...

I have worked with hoarders. I've worked with the TV show hoarders. I have seen everything, literally everything, your house I've been there. It's not that bad.

And when they hear that, they're like, okay, So if you've worked with hoarders and you've been, you know, TV show style, like that kind of stuff, I've worked with the TV show. Even like, if you see that level of stuff, Oh, my stuff is nowhere near that.

Now I know I'm not that far gone. Right. And so then they kind of ease up and they're like, all right, you get me, you know, you can understand where I'm coming from. You know that I'm not a hoarder, you know that I'm not crazy. And now I feel comfortable letting you in.

And I think that's the same thing we do with people with the websites is we try to gain that trust. And this is what I'd like about The Conversation I like about your videos and what I try to do as well with my podcast.

It's like, you try to just gain that trust. It's like, Hey, look, there's answers out there. I have a lot of them. I don't have all of them, but I have a lot of them. And if you're looking, listening to this going, Oh, that would help so much. Or, Oh yeah. That's me. Then you, you, now that, when I'm saying

Kia Kamgar: [00:55:17] It's true, I mean, this is the going back to marketing.

Because this is your expertise, obviously, and this is what you do.

Um, what I do everything myself, I've always been like that always been like that. So what I, again, going back to the videos, it was point of top of mind, like, Oh, Kia can do this. I want to be known now I'm known as the Tech Minimalist, as well as the MacJunky, obviously, which is great.

So I've had so many conversations like this, where so much information we had. We've had conversations before that weren't recorded. Like shit that should have been recorded. And it's just been going on for a year for me.

And then I thought, well, how can I, how can I use this for benefit? Right. For getting the story out there, that's the message out there.

So the content strategy is kind of changing. I'm still going to be doing the daily videos. I think, because I love doing them. Um, and the idea, yeah, I am going to be doing, in fact, after this, I'm going to be recording today's video. So, um, it'll be the same clothes but anyway, um, so then I thought, well, if I, and people have been asking for long form content, right?

So it will be transcribed and everything. And um, the app that I'm using Descript has this Audiogram thing. You've probably seen me post it on the script.

Oh my God, it's brilliant. Oh my God, it's so good.

So I thought let's sign up for a month. See, see if it works out, but it's working out. It's been like a few days, so it's working out.

And so the repurposing of the content. So get people to understand who you are. It's so important. I mean, this is your area of expertise. Get people to know who you are. Um, and I think. That definitely helps. And I'm sure it would help me. The problem I have with Tech Minimalism is people like to kick the tires as to what is this?

And that's the problem I'm having in a way, not with everybody because I am getting clients.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:57:28] I get that a lot too. And when I opened my membership...

It really did help!

Kia Kamgar: [00:57:34] Too much work for me.

I don't want to do that.

I really thought about it.

We spoke about it before. I was like... you know, membership. Because I had it in Basecamp at one stage.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:57:43] Are you in mine?

I am in yours, of course.

Okay. Do you, do you know what I do in there?

Like, do you, have you looked and seen like how often I'm in there?

Kia Kamgar: [00:57:53] No, you're not that often. I know which is which I thought that was strange.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:57:57] It fits in my lifestyle. I fit it to my lifestyle. So if you were to do something where you had one and you put in a course, cause that's where I really did did it because I wanted to have a place where I could put all these five courses that I built, which were just videos.

They're videos, they're PDFs. They're not like anything crazy. It's not like you're thinking like course, like, you know, teachable and it's got modules and tests and courses.

Kia Kamgar: [00:58:19] Okay. For instance, how many videos in one of your courses?

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:58:23] One or two, but they're long, they're longer form. And then there's all of these like templates and things like that, that I would give to a client anyway.

So I basically have in the, in the courses one to two videos, and then that are long form that really explain the process. Like it's usually me at a talk explaining everything. And then I have short ones that are like, Oh, I did a video on YouTube and it was this content or this little thing about social media or this thing about Facebook live or whatever.

And so I put those in there. So all the social media stuff is together. The social media, when it's probably the biggest course probably has about 10 videos in it because there's a bunch of little ones because I've done videos on that so much. And then a couple of talks that I've given to different groups.

And then I have all my templates in there, which I'm already giving to clients anyway. So it's not like I'm doing anything else. And so that's the biggest course.

And then the branding course has templates. The things that I use for my business cards, my eBooks, the logos branding guides.

Kia Kamgar: [00:59:25] And they're not that expensive either, really? Because you're just putting out there, yeah.

And

Elizabeth Pampalone: [00:59:32] so, but what I did was I wanted a home for all of that because I have five topics. You know, you have one, maybe two, I don't know how many of you want, but I have five topics and I wanted to have a home where they all lived. And once I did that, I post, I have a scheduled post in my membership.

Um, every couple of days that I already prescheduled a month or two in advance, I could do more. I just haven't really gone that deep into it. Um, and those are just questions and there there's a graphic.

And then as I think of something that it's not every day it's, maybe every couple of days, if I get a question from a client, I'll post something about it in there.

If I have been hearing something, you know, scuttlebutt around the water cooler kind of idea, I'll post it in there. But it's like you said that top of mind of the moment, um, I'll say I have an idea to do something that's like I haven't done before and then I'll ask people if they want it. Because then I know if I'm hitting the right spots with actually putting out content, people want to see.

Kia Kamgar: [01:00:34] That's really interesting. Cause you know, I hear about this all the time and I don't do it. And I think the reason I don't do it, it comes out of the simplicity mindset for me. I want it to be so simple. I don't want to be like, for instance, I've been in tech for 30 years and throughout my tech life, I've never done contracts because I don't, I don't want to cause they're, they're a pain in the butt basically.

So I've always been kind of, you hire me for X amount of days, weeks, months, whatever. And if you don't like me, you can obviously go somewhere else because I don't like contracts. Why am I forcing on you?

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:01:09] Right.

Kia Kamgar: [01:01:09] It's worked. It's worked. It's brilliant. It's fantastic. So going back to a contract, meaning I have this space where I have to do things and... yeah.

It turns into a job that I don't want. It turns into a job I don't want a job.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:01:25] I should think of it more like to two different pieces that are in one platform.

Kia Kamgar: [01:01:30] Okay.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:01:31] One of the pieces is like your own social media platform.

Kia Kamgar: [01:01:36] Yeah. Yeah.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:01:37] But that's one part, right? That's where you post and you share things and people ask questions and you answer them right.

Then there's a second piece of it. And this is literally all it has to be. It doesn't have to be any more than this. This is what mine is.

There's a second piece of it, which is your archive, your place where the course or courses live.

Kia Kamgar: [01:01:58] Right.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:02:00] It's just that hard drive holding place somewhere. You can send people to, that's not complicated.

They can get a free benefit of something. And then they can also have, Oh, by the way, there's my course that's $99 or whatever. I have free courses in there. I've done five day challenges. I have eBooks that I've written, the content I've created over time gets pushed in there. When I first started my membership, there was like two courses in there.

And it was only because those are the only two I had like done. Those are the only two I had like together. And that was it. And then I was like, Oh yeah, I did that five day challenge thing. I should throw that in there. Oh yeah, I did this other thing. I should throw that in there. And then I just started putting everything together and I have added other elements to mind where I'm in there.

I do a monthly training. I do a monthly networking just because I want to be engaged with the people. That's just my version of it. You don't have to do that. Um, but the other thing I put in there is my guest expert. And I basically find people that I think are awesome and I say, Hey, do you want to do a video for my membership?

A lot of people already have their video done. They already have something they can just share. And then I put it in, they joined the membership. If someone asks questions, they might get a client out of it, but I'm sharing content that way. And I think it would be a great place to have all of your videos kind of repost it in a way.

I know they're on your website, but have them repost it so that there's like a catalog and then have these conversations. There's a catalog. Um, and I just think that would be great to have like this kind of like, this is K's world and you're in it and he's kind of controlling what's happening here, but it's very simple because it's like podcasts, videos, and then courses.

And then you have this little like feed, which is like social media, but really it's just people asking questions every now and again.

Kia Kamgar: [01:03:56] Why would that differ too? You've seen my website. Why, how would that differ to me? Just for people... I don't, I'm kind of lost in a way, but I mean, I understand the concept. Yeah.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:04:11] Because you already hate social media.

Kia Kamgar: [01:04:15] Yeah.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:04:16] I know this about you. And I think it would give you sort of an excuse to almost be less on social media. You could still post things out. Obviously you want to get the videos out in the podcast and everything, but you would be posting less of your own insight.

They're posting more of it own and you're on your own intranet in a way so that your intellectual content that's brilliant, that the brilliant stuff stays within your own world rather than it being out there. And it being kind of free, freeware if you will, it's a little bit more like, yeah, you're getting these little drips and drabs on LinkedIn or whatever from me, but if you want the really good stuff, that juicy stuff that I am like, this was brilliant.

That's where you joined so that I can then have it have contact with you more than just, you might have seen me on social media.

Kia Kamgar: [01:05:15] Right.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:05:16] You will see what I post because you are in my space.

Kia Kamgar: [01:05:20] Yeah. I mean, that's yeah, I tried that twice.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:05:25] Yeah.

Kia Kamgar: [01:05:26] I ha... I was on, um, was it, I can't remember the name Podia or something.

I tried it, so I put my courses on there. I had two courses at Tech Minimalism course and a Basecamp basics course, course. Um, I sold a couple. I mean, I wasn't doing it for money. It was like, I wouldn't. I want to do a course because everyone's doing it and let's see, and it went well. But then again, it goes back to, this is work.

This sounds so weird coming from me. I am not lazy. Again. I spoke about this before, but the idea of, my idea of work is people give me shit to play with, and then they give me money. That's my idea of work, right? And that's been like that for 30 years.

So creating a member space and so on, I find that work. I don't find that people giving me stuff to play with.

Now. I completely understand. And it's kind of changing my mind in a sense of why you putting this stuff out on as freeware as you said, rather than putting it in your own space where people can come in.

If you do that. And I, and I agree with that. I think that's fricking brilliant idea. I never thought of it that way.

Um, I kind of, thought of it that way, because that's why I don't put post my stuff on YouTube. That's why I put it on my own website.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:06:54] Yeah.

Kia Kamgar: [01:06:57] Right. So then the idea is, well, um, how do you get people to know that you've got that information?

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:07:08] You utilize social media for that reason, but your podcasts will be out.

Your videos will be going out and you do post those or snippets of those on LinkedIn, et cetera. So you're still going to be doing the things you're doing. Those are. And that's where I say the automation comes in, right?

So that you don't have to be manually doing that all the time. It's like kind of doing it by itself.

Then you focus your actual attention into the membership,

which is where people actually, they want to know what you're saying.

They want to engage with you.

They've made the decision to be with you.

And so I think that that's more beneficial than if you're just saying,

what I call the

spray and pray method of social media, where you're just kind of like throwing it out there, hoping somebody engages.

You know, that the people that actually come into your membership,

something triggered them to be there.

Whether it was a post, you made someone shared it with them,

whatever that is.

And that brings those people that actually want to be there.

They're there.

Kia Kamgar: [01:08:08] I mean, so, okay. Let's talk about numbers. Not financially, but numbers of people, because you obviously had a following before you did your membership, is that correct?

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:08:21] Yes.

Kia Kamgar: [01:08:22] And now you have how many in your membership right now in your, in that website?

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:08:27] So the first round that we did I've changed the, the way it works a couple of times. So I've had numbers go up and down. Um, but the first round I had had a Facebook group for four years. I did all the things, the face group people said, right?

Like, do this, do this, you'll grow your membership, blah, blah, blah. I had 84 people for the whole time. And it was like my clients. It was just people that I already knew and I never grew it. I never, and I still did all the things. Right. I did more work like you're saying then when I moved to this platform that I'm in now, I went from 0 to 150 in two weeks.

Kia Kamgar: [01:09:04] Wow.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:09:06] And then I started to say, okay, well I want to charge for this. I went down to 50.

Kia Kamgar: [01:09:13] Right.

And I said, this isn't working.

Of those. 150. So they left.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:09:16] Yep.

Kia Kamgar: [01:09:17] Okay.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:09:18] Well, I took some of them out because my whole thing with this is I started this little thing that says, if it's going to be free, I said, I want to charge for it then I went back to it being free.

So what I said, if this is going to be free, you have to do two things to keep your free membership. It's just my little rules. It doesn't mean you have to do this, but I said, you need to have a picture or a logo in your little icon. I don't want to see any of those little generic ones.

And I said, you have to fill in your profile. And the reason I said, you have to fill in your profile is because, I want other people to find you useful. I want other people to search and go, Oh, this person's pretty cool. And when I click on you and you've made a great comment, I click on your name. I want to know what you do, who you are, how can I contact you?

Let me see your social. Let me see your website. I want to provide that for you. That someone else will see that. And also if I'm referring someone to you, I needed maybe refresh myself on what you do and go, Oh yeah, that's the right person.

Kia Kamgar: [01:10:16] Yeah.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:10:17] And then connect you too, and so I was like, that's the only two things you have to do. And so when I went through that and I told people, Oh, I told them several times. Please fill this in, please. And people didn't do it. I kicked him out.

Kia Kamgar: [01:10:30] I saw that and I did it straight away because I actually thought it was a great idea. I think that again, this whole thing of free your, the products kind of thing, but it also means if it's free, do people value it?

And if you, if you don't value it, there's no reason for you to be there.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:10:48] And I want to, I don't want you to just have like a membership to have a... to have to be a member, to be a member. Like there's no point.

Kia Kamgar: [01:10:55] No.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:10:56] If you're here, you're here for a reason. And if you're here for a reason, whether it's networking, whether it's learning about marketing, whether it's just being a part of the group, because some people just are there to be a part of the group and, or share their own ideas.

You don't have people that are knowledgeable in these things that are copywriters or whatever, and they'll help other people when they ask questions. And that's great because I don't know everything, but yeah, I definitely I've kicked a lot of people out. And actually now I've started to do it where it's in the welcome message.

It says it right up front. Here's exactly what you need to do. Here's how you keep your membership free. And then it says on the 30th day, so basically after 30 days you get kicked out, if it's not done.

Kia Kamgar: [01:11:36] Right.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:11:37] So I'm just doing that now. I don't send people the messages anymore. I'm just like 30 days. So today I'm kicking everyone out who signed up on March 1st or March 5th. Who did not, uh, who did not actually fill it in.

Kia Kamgar: [01:11:51] I think I filled mine out. I think I have. Yeah. I'm okay. No, this is, I mean, it's, it's, uh, interesting to kind of think about the stepping stones, because going back to what we were talking about, the membership thing, as I said, I tried...

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:12:10] you have to, and this is what I'm going to tell you.

This will be my last piece of advice on this. First of all, I've tried multiples as well. So I feel that feel you on that one, because some of them did not work, but you have to see what fits your lifestyle.

And if you're saying it's it's work and you don't want to do it, it doesn't, it doesn't fit your lifestyle. It doesn't mean it will never fit your lifestyle.

You might need to show that for a while and then come back to it. Just like you have with the podcast, just like you have with other things you've done.

Kia Kamgar: [01:12:38] Yes.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:12:39] But, but shelve that don't, don't kick it out the door completely, but say, I'm going to shelve this and then come back to it later and see if it's still, if it's still like that.

Kia Kamgar: [01:12:46] I think the thing that works for me is kind of what I've, what I've got now for now. Okay. So everything else, the shelved, it's shelved. So right now, if you go onto my website, you'll see what your day is like, what I can do, what I don't do, who, who I work with. Um, and the, what I don't do. It's kind of a big deal for me.

I don't do group stuff. I don't do courses. I don't do any, I don't even have an email list now you're going to be in shock there because the email list that I have was the old company. It's not the new company. So a lot of those people just, they don't do anything. So, so then recently I said, okay, let's segregate this.

So I, I, I can't move them over to, to the new one, but I have sent an email out saying, I'm going to retire this list completely gone. So if you want to stay in touch with me, go to this place. So I use, I use, HEY email and HEY has this new blogging platform that you can do. And it's beautiful.

It's simple. It looks exactly how I would do it, et cetera, et cetera. So then I thought, well, let's. Let's have that as my email list, but also because you can read it online, like a blog, it's kind of like an archive of the emails that I send out. So I kind of dual purpose use that, um, as an email list and as a blog and moving over to a personal brand has helped it because I can talk about anything.

This isn't about Macs this isn't about tech. This is about anything. Right. And so that's helped. And then I found a lot of, lot more people are engaging and a lot more people are signing up.

So the way you were talking about your, you didn't say your tribe, but basically your tribe, your, your social network.

I think in a way that that's my network. Now. There's not that many people in there right now, because it's only been around for a couple of weeks or so. I got 50 people and that's fine. Right? They're not being charged. It's all kind of free information, but it's more to do with, these are my thoughts.

Now going to the archive thing. That's actually on my website, right? So I am doing what you're saying in a way, but it's not in one place.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:15:18] I think you take those courses. You did. And I know you say you don't do courses and I think you should just name them Guides.

Kia Kamgar: [01:15:29] They are, they are, that's funny. They are, they're called guides.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:15:32] You're not saying it's a course because you don't do courses, but you do guides.

Kia Kamgar: [01:15:38] They are... In fact, if I look now, they are called guides. Definitely. And they are on my website. But, um, I might, I might, so I have a Basecamp, one. And with the Basecamp one, I've put it on the Basecamp page on my website and it actually says, um, you know, here's a guide to help you.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:16:02] I would put a guide tab.

Kia Kamgar: [01:16:05] Yeah. That might be an idea. I could do that.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:16:07] Just a guide, you know, just a tab that says guides. because then I don't have to hunt for it. If I'm, if I don't know what page to look on.

Kia Kamgar: [01:16:15] That's a good point. I might, I might try that. So, so kind of, it's not too dissimilar to what you're doing.

One I missing and I toyed with this idea is having like people comment and talk on whatever.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:16:30] Right?

Kia Kamgar: [01:16:30] The only problem I have with that, just like when I'm working with clients, I don't like to be SMS. Don't SMS me. If you SMS me, I ain't reading it. I, I, it doesn't matter if your house is burning down. You're not going to get a reply.

And when, I mean, SMS is anything other than email, you're not getting a reply. So the only way I communicate with my clients and the people is email and Basecamp. Basecamp, if I'm working with you and an email for everything else, because I can track it, I don't use a CRM just like you. I use Basecamp as my CRM.

So having a commenting system on my website was akin to having a messaging, have having a, um, it just makes it look messy because I liked the simplicity of what it is. And it's akin to having someone send me a message, because it's not in one place. So what I've done is basically said, email me, my email is open.

There's a mess... you know, just emailing. And that worked for a while.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:17:32] I think, but I think the sense of community that you're missing, if you don't have any kind of commenting and that's where yes, they could contact you directly because they can email you. But if they say. Wow. This video really helped me. Or like, if I commented on one that you talked about email archiving or something, and I'm like, this changed my life.

This was amazing. She was doing folders. I realized I didn't have to do them and I'm commenting my story. And then someone else comes along and they read this, of course it's reinforcing. It's just like when people read reviews of stuff, right. We don't really buy anything anymore until we read a review.

So, and I know you have a ton of reviews, but you know, as far as like on that specific piece of content, and that's why social media is so popular, because it's almost like people who, you know, there's a piece of content that goes out and then people who are commenting or like reviewing it in a way by saying, yeah, that's great.

Or no, it sucks, you know, whatever.

Kia Kamgar: [01:18:30] Again, the reason for taking the... because I did have commenting on it. No one's commenting.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:18:36] Yeah.

Kia Kamgar: [01:18:37] And so then you got an empty comment section and then people come to your website and go, well, Yeah. You know, so it might come back again. It's a shelved thing because I'm, I, it's a journey that I'm going through is I'm at the start of the journey, even though I've been doing this for like a year and a half I've because I've made the hard pivot over to me rather than MacJunky.

Because you know, I've been going back and forth and really bad for everything. Um, so I've now made a hard pivot and I'm getting different type of clientele and different kind of, um, followers that may come back.

But right now it's just not worth it. But I do like the idea of your own social network, what you, what you called it and your own place where people can communicate with you. Yeah. Email, but that's not a community that's just a call effectively.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:19:32] And you can use the platform that I use. You can actually use it as like a, like a, like a, just a forum

Kia Kamgar: [01:19:39] Okay. Yeah.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:19:40] It has the ability to expand if you later wanted to do more with it. Um, but, but yeah, it is like a, like a forum you can use it like a, just a forum.

I'll have alook at that.

Kia Kamgar: [01:19:51] Okay. Well, um, yeah, thanks for having a Conversation with me. It's really been awesome. Um, we're definitely gonna do it again.

Because these, it's funny because when I said I wanted to do this, so many people messaged me and said, I want to be on it. And now you're the second, um, person to have The Conversation with, but I have eight in total right now.

So that's kind of like, okay, that's two months work.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:20:18] Yeah.

Kia Kamgar: [01:20:21] This work thing coming back again. But I actually love doing these videos, so it's kind of pretty cool. But um, your in, where are you? Where in the U S are you again? Jacksonville,

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:20:31] Florida. And there's allergies really bad right now. So my nose is constantly touching and my eyes are constantly intching.

Kia Kamgar: [01:20:39] Yeah, well, you'll be fine. I'm sure you'll be fine.

Hey again, thanks again. And, um, I'll message you for sure. Um, and I'll talk to you next time.

Elizabeth Pampalone: [01:20:51] All right. Sounds good.

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