After seeing one of Mary's posts and videos on LinkedIn, I know I had to make contact and have a conversation with her!

Hi, I'm Kia

I'm a Tech Minimalist and founder of MacJunky. I work remotely while travelling in a classic Chevy K5 Blazer with my dog Woof! and sharing the journey.


Just had an amazing conversation with Mary. I met Mary on LinkedIn, someone I know liked one of her posts and it so intrigued me. I did a bit of stalking found out that her and her husband run an it business, but what really intrigued me and why I wanted to have this conversation. And I wanted to share it with you is that her messaging is amazing the way she's trying to.

Changed it in the sense that the, when we talk about this, basically the end result matters for the client. The client doesn't need to know what steps necessarily you took to get to that end result. And I think it guys, it people, whether you're first line, second line, third line can really understand a lot from this conversation.

Because again, if you are an ignite, if you are in it, you will understand that the end result matters. If you're a consumer and the end client, you understand what it, people go through in getting those things. And that there has to be a marry between the two factions because when the end user, because they have an issue that needs to be written.

So they ha they already have annoyances. And the it guy. His job is to fix that annoyance, no matter how annoying it is, but anyway, fantastic conversation. I really do hope you enjoy it. His, our conversation, and you got to listen to it. Hear this. Hey, thanks for coming. Thanks for being here. I thought I'd send you a video message.

So you kind of get to know me a little bit because we've never met before, obviously for people listening to this. And the whole point of the conversation basically is to just meet people in the same realm, get at the same thing that I do. And somebody I know likes one of your posts. And I saw it and I was like, okay, I need to know more about this person.

So I stalked, you went through websites and everything. I'm like, oh man, I'm just like nodding in agreement. I always say this thing about nodding in agreement. And I'm like, okay, this would be a cold person to have a conversation with because not only are you in it but just like my last week's conversation I had with with somebody and we were also talking about the communication between the it field people and the end user, the end client.

And I've been in tech for 30 years or so. And. I've always been like that. I always try to explain things really simply like you're a, five-year old and sometimes that comes across as if, yeah. You know why you're talking to me like this. Yeah. But, but you know, there, there is a way, way of saying things and there are ways of saying things and I managed to do it in such a way where it's helps me.

And when you were saying it was like, okay, well obviously I'm not alone because now I'm speaking to people. So tell me how it started for you. Why, why you started in that click simple communication thing.

Well, the same reason. I'm like not only, you know, I worked in the background with my husband and this, and so I dealt a lot in the customer service and he's really good with people, but as I grew and I've come into cybersecurity, I've come into sort of meeting people from around the world and, and then talking to pure techs, I was like, I want to punch you in your face, you know, because they're talking to you and yeah.

You know, like I, that being a woman doesn't have everything to do with it because I hear them talking to people all the time. All right. But as we start nailing down was like, I started going through like every it company is pretty much the same. Like we all fix the same crap. Right. We all fix your computer.

We vary in our approach. We vary in the tools that we use. I'm like, but you know what, I'm a female. And I like clear communication and I like face-to-face and I like, I'm not attack. Like I can not write code to save my life, but I know, right. Technology. I know cybersecurity, you don't. And I'm like, when I'm talking to people and they started, I felt like a fuzz floating around.

Sorry. But when I started talking to them, they were like, oh my gosh, like, I actually understand you. Like your husband's amazing, but I understand you. And I was like, so I just started asking him. I said, well, what is your frustration? Like, what are you hearing? They all say the same thing. I just asked a guy yesterday.

I was like, what do you hate about technology? He goes, oh my gosh. He's like, I get these guys. They don't know what they're talking about. They don't know what they're doing. And they waste my time. I really need to be talking to somebody. Who's like a level three he's like, and then nobody can help me. And I'm like, So I know I'm not making it up at all.

This is not. So that's what led is my interaction. And it only gets fortified when I meet people and I was at an it conference and I was talking to these two texts who were like, I've been in business for like 30 years and talking to them about a security tool. And I was like, they're like, I can't sell this.

Like we only, this is the model we use. Like if we're in an organization ideal and find the ants and we protect them. So we are only protecting basically the echelon of the company, 30% of the people we protect. And I was like, oh, so you mean the 70% of people you're not protecting? He's like, no. And I was like, Hmm, last time I checked.

I thought security was protecting a hundred percent of the people. Right. And then he started talking down to me and I was like, Take a deep breath. I, like I said, excuse me. And he was like, well, maybe I need to come sit with you and learn how to sell. I said, well, maybe you do. And then you'll learn how to secure something to sell something.

And I was like, but that is the attitude that you think you are Demi gods, you think? And, and I understand the way their mind works. Like they see a problem and they want to deal specifically with that problem. That's all they can see. And they're like, how do you not understand it? It's logic. Like I know that's how they operate.

Their EEQ is so sucky.

You know, it's crazy. I come across it all the time. You know, I take, we all take over other people's work and then you, I mean, everyone has their own way of working. I mean, we all do. So when you're taking on, when I'm taking on other people's work, other people's projects, like the, it guys isn't there anymore.

I asked them, why is it that we didn't understand anything? He said, Yeah. So the main thing it's like, I don't know why he wanted us to use this and yeah. Some, and it's a shame because what happens, you're in the shit, because you've really got to get it fixed and whatever you do, isn't going to be correct.

Whatever you do. Yeah. Because they've got such a bad taste in their mouth basically that they don't really trust anyone. However, if you CA if you I've luckily won a lot over, not every, not everyone, but when you. Say to actually talk to them simply individually, like, like a normal person, rather than a techie.

It makes sense. They're like, oh, this is why. And then you wonder why they use specific tools. And I'm like, why did you, why are you using us? There's only five of you here. Why are you using this stuff? Well, we were told, and this is the thing that I really hate about it is because it guys and I hate being called it because I think guys use tech because they want to use it.

Not because the company needs it. And this is a massive, massive problem for people like us, who just want to help people. Like this is all you need and I come across it all. Yeah. It's yeah. It's, it's really shitty basically.

When, when that we can change it, that's like my determination is like coming into this learning.

I was like, it has done wrong. Fundamentally. It has done. Wrong. And you're exactly right. Like they, they project what they want, what they think is cool. And they don't listen to the company. And this is tight. Really technology is a really personal thing. If you think of a company and everything that they're comprised of and how the personality that they have, how do they want to communicate?

How do they want to sell? How do they, you know, cause really security and stuff. That's like peripheral, they're focused on how can I make money? How can I use this? And that's what it should be. And texts are like, well, let me come in and get you, you know, they make it they're really narcissistic in that way and they make it about them.

Not the end, not the company. Not happy with the company.

No. Oh, I mean I put, I put it in the same same kind of bulks as Garage people, or you take your car to the garage. You don't know what's happening. You just need it fixed. I mean, luckily I know how to build cars, so that's okay. So when I take it to garage, I know roughly what's going on, what they're doing, but before I knew that you take your car to the garage, well, we need to do this and this and that.

She like, okay, I don't know. I have no idea. You get up fat bill, whatever. And the thing, the problem with it is, cause it's not just one bill, it's an ongoing thing. So they're being fleeced. I know so many companies that have been fleeced completely fleeced by paying for stuff that they just don't need because they haven't, as you say, communicated properly with the client and vice versa.

I mean, a client has, I gotta be honest. The client has to ask to take some blame. And what I mean by that is. That the client doesn't know responsibility, the client doesn't know. And if you don't know, please ask someone else, please ask a few people. And there's a difference between, you know, me working differently to you and vice versa.

However, you'll get the understanding. If you ask like four or five people, there's a standard. Yeah. There's a standard. Exactly. Yeah. So, but, but 19 8%, it's the it companies. Yeah.

And that, see, that's my goal. Like we at okay. Companies and users, the regular old Joe, right? Like they really don't have a clue.

And who is teaching them? The tech, you know, I'm like, they don't know the standard in which they need to operate and they don't know the questions to ask. And they should like, it's like, if I'm, I don't know, like Amazon called Amazon and I quote Amazon called my husband the other week and was like, oh, we have notification that somebody was trying to buy a $1,000 iPhone on your account.

Can you please update your information? I'm like most people, cause I talked to them, doctors, smart people, they have common sense. And they were like, oh no, like, yeah, I just gave my information and I was like flip the script. Yeah. You know, I'm like, how about you tell them, why don't you tell me what my account information is like?

And that's the whole thing people don't know because no one's teaching them and no one's speaking. It's simply to them to say, here's the standard.

Yeah. You know what I do when, when that happens? I basically say to them, if you walk down the street and someone says, can I have your wallet? What would you say?

Simple? That's it? Yeah. Like right. You say, no, go away. What the hell? You know, someone had walked down the street and looked like a policeman, but didn't it show the bag? What would you say? Give me the badge. It's the same thing. It's just common sense for a lot of things. So there is a bit of responsibility for the client.

Yeah. But installing systems, apps, services that the client need, it totally falls on the it guy. So it it's crazy. I've, I've had so many of those kinds of calls, like you just said, it's crazy. Yeah. I even had a friend who, again, that the lawyers and stuff, creepy people. Right? Yeah. And she gave them the whole credit card, but the four last four digits, but the last four digits, luckily, cause she said.

This don't sound right. And I'm like, wait, you've been on the phone for 15 minutes

and you're giving everything big data,

but just at the last second, you like, no, why didn't you? Oh, wow.

I know. And that's why I'm like preach, preach, preach, preach, preach, preach, educate, educate, educate. And it's only one company at a time.

And that's, I guess obviously what I'm saying is striking a nerve with people because I get more like that's right. That's right. And I'm like, yes. So let's start a movement. Let's change the way it is done. Let's, you know, redefine the industry because we are like, it's not, you know, we're not going away.

Like it's only increasing, but it's become just as encircle as human resources. Just as much as finance. Like you have to have this side, but you have to have people. And that's where I'm like, I love, I love it. It's kind of sick. I'm not gonna lie, but meeting other guys. In the industry and they talked to me and they're like, what?

Like you own the company, like you do a cybersecurity. I'm like, yes. And they're like, then they give me this look like you're never gonna get anywhere. I was like, that's my biggest weapon, baby. You just underestimate me and I'm gonna cut your feet off from under you because that's the attitude you carry with you.

So that's Bruce Lee thing. Right? That's the thing. I mean, it's crazy. I mean, I, you know, I worked at a huge organizations and there were two or three, three female. It guys, I'm just going to call my to guys. I tell people that, and it's no fucking difference. However one was crap, but it doesn't mean it was just, she was really rubbish.

But the thing is, I don't think anyone, I remember getting to the male female thing, which I think is a stupid thing in itself, because if you're qualified to do a job, just do the fricking job. And if you, if you've got a quota to get a black person in or a brown person in, or a white that's stupid. That just irritates the bejesus out of me that really does it doesn't matter if a dog could do the work, hire the fricking dog, basically, you know, shouldn't be anything else.

So if exactly, if the person can't do the job, no matter who they are, I'm calling them out. That's just the way it is. It doesn't matter who it is. I'm not here to walk on eggshells to say, you know, I'm not, it's just not, but that's just my pers personality, right? Yeah. But that's who we are. But

that's how it should be.

Like, I want, I've seen, I've had more men encourage me in this industry than ever talk down to me. That's like one in probably like a hundred, honestly, but a lot of females shy away because they don't, they just don't know. Like, I think this is a whole industry that is wide open. I'm like nobody's saying no.

Nobody nobody's going, no, you can't do this.

Okay. So here's the, here's the thing I still wouldn't encourage. Right? Because encouragement still gives you that fine line is male and female. Does that make sense? It's a weird way of thinking about it. I'm not, I wouldn't say you're a female go for it. The reason I called you is because of the work that you did.

I didn't care who you look like, what you wear or pink hair, whatever. I like

that. I like that. I

respect that. I really wish more people would just respect the work and re rather than respect the person know, that sounds weird, but you

know what I mean? I know what you mean, but like for here, what I see and it's, to me, everything's politicized, but I've got daughters and I don't want them.

Disqualifying themselves just because it seems to be a specific way if you're interested in passionate. And that's the problem that I see is like too many people in the educational system, especially the public educational system here. There's just like, there's nobody saying there's a, a cyber high school.

It opened up in Huntsville, Alabama, where they're getting people from those counties and they are that like, the government is basically funding it, but it's based on their ability, you know? So whether they're male or female and being in rural settings where I've been, they don't, that's not options for them.

And this is where I'm like, I don't come from a highly educated background from a family who like, that's not what I come from. I don't care. Like this is what I want to do. So I'm going to do it. And I'm going to do everything with excellence and it comes down to attitude. But my thing is. Girls are there's, it's a psyche.

It has nothing to do so much with, well, it is female. That's just a female band. I'm not highly emotional. So I do have a hard time, but I understand the way they think. And I'm like, they need to be able to say, I can hold my eyes up and I can walk in. And as long as I know what I'm doing, I should be judged on my merit.

Not on what I am. Yeah. I understand. And that's that's yeah. The voice that I'm proclaiming for females, because.

No, I completely understand that. I completely understand. I think the problem is you've come across it when it guys have been in it for X amount of years. And I've been in it for 30, more than 30 years now.

I don't, can I share it? Yeah, it is. It's more a case of, I'm not, I wouldn't, I've never, ever spoken down to anybody in any sense, unless it sarcasm basically because of funniness, nothing to do with anything else, you could be anybody. It doesn't, I don't give a shit, but it, I it's always down to, for me, the thing that irritates me more than anything.

Forget work or anything is just people not doing their jobs properly. And this isn't anything to do with it. It's like I go to an office and somebody gets me a drink and it's fizzed up. I'm sorry. But that, you know, so it doesn't matter what just things irritate me. Yeah.

It's halfway. I call it halfway, barely.

There just enough. That has an attitude that I cannot stand because it's not productive. And I'm like, there are too many people out there who can do something. I'm like, why am I going to waste your time with you? Right. So, and that's, to me, that's indicative of our industry because people don't know, then they feel like they can get away with more and then they can do things halfway.

And that comes down. That's not. That is not Jennifer, so that his personality and his character, and they're like, that's good enough for who it is. And I'm like, no, that's no, we hold power of life and death for these people's networks for the little guide, you know, like have some pride in

it crazy. But again, it comes down, comes down to, and I have, I, for the past two years, I've started to seen a shift in the more be open about it.

Stop being a Dick, basically. Right. Yeah. And the thing is, it's the old school of thought where I know this it's going to be good. It's going to be good for them. So I'm going to use it. This is me. This is the, these people we don't like. And I'm going to get recurring revenue, so let's just install it and you're going to a home.

Who's got like, you know, massive networks. I mean, it's stupid. I have one here because that's what I do. Yeah. I haven't got a big house, but I got, you know, it was quite big. So I put in a nice mesh system and it's huge and it's servers and cameras and stuff. It's brilliant because I can do that. Would I install that at anyone's house?

No fricking way, because I don't need the hassle. I don't know. Forget them. I don't want the hassle. Yeah, it's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. And you know, if you're thinking, oh, I'm going to install all this stuff because I, I really enjoy it. You shouldn't be doing this. You should not be doing this. And it just irritates me because I see it again all the time, all the time.

So when I meet people like you who say simply, because my thing is simplicity, not laziness, simplicity, and simplicity is really fricking hard. I say this all the time, but if you get it right, it pays dividends. It really does. For more than, I mean, it's, it's crazy how people just don't get it. They're like, oh, I'm just going to do all this stuff.

I hate hacks. For instance, I hate hacks. Remember when there were cups for doing printer networks and stuff never used it. Cause I personally thought it was a hack because if it goes wrong, it's on your head. Yeah. I would just tell them, get another printer. Just get another printer.

Well, well, and that's it like, what's going to be more beneficial for them.

Not for me, you know, and this is something that like my, the guys who were in tech. That work with us. Like, I'm always like, I'm like really tech is simple at the end of the day. It really is like, there's a few components. You need the backend. And there, they all are like, it is not simple. There's nothing.

I'm like, I'm like, I hear you the backend, it can be intricate, but I'm like, you overcomplicate it like to the end user, all they need to know is, is my stuff working? Yeah. Am I going to be able to produce XYZ? And am I safe? You know? And they don't need, they don't need a dissertation on products on, you know, they just they're like, I just want to like, just tell me like really how, like, this is how we're securing.

Like they want to know some, but they don't care about, well, I had to go into this app and then I had to connect this and then I had to go in and this code and I had to write this script and then I had to I'm like, don't care. They don't care. No shit. But that's where my pride

is. My about page. I actually say this stuff.

I'm like, no one cares. I don't know. Want to sit here explaining anything to you if you want to. I'll be once I finished Alex, I'll be glad to explain it to you, but you just need to know, is it working? Do I need to push this button or this button? That's the, it's the end result. I always work from the end result.

What's the end result. What is it that you want to do? Well, I don't want to move my iPhone from here to here. Okay. Well, you got an arm. There you go. Yeah. A guy would just use a fricking robot program and I'm like, come on, man. Yeah. It's it's silly. This there's no need for it. Again. Simplicity. Isn't easy.

Get simplicity, simplicity easy, because you can just move it. But the end result matters. And I put this on my website because, and I hope people read it. I don't know if they do, but the end result. It is the thing that you've got to work towards, not all this other bumps, because even though you enjoy it, you as the tech it guy enjoy doing it, do it, do it for yourself.

Like I did with this network, do it for yourself and enjoy it and love it. So when when an opportunity comes and you need to install it at a big, you can do it because you've done it. Yep. Yep. But don't do it from mom and pop who needs just a normal mesh network or whatever it is. It just, it's just not necessary.

So yeah. My whole thing is keep it simple. It simple. I write that everywhere. Yeah. And yeah, let's, let's, let's create this fricking move movement because I think it's needed.

Yes partner, like you're on the other side of the world and you get, like, I know the regulations, that's one thing that is coming to the United States.

Regulation is on our doorstep when it comes to technology and security and whatnot, it's already started on the state levels, but it needs to be, cause I'm like, you got what we call, what is it, a Jack and a trunk or something like that. Trunk slammers, you know, just running around, checking the truck. My husband just helped me.

You're checking the traffic. Okay. Running around, fixing it. And these businesses are trusting. And again, that goes to the lack of education and they do need to take some responsibility because it's like, you're purposely hiding your head in the sand. You're purposely and willfully ignoring. Now they can't ignore it.

I mean, have you looked at the U S news and all the hacks happening? Like they can't ignore it. Like it's finally they, and you know why? Because they have felt it. Yeah, they excelled it. Our gas has been interrupted our food supply. Like here's the deal? It's Tyson chicken nuggets in the grocery store. Like they don't have those right now.

Why? Because

oh, chicken nuggets. Chicken

nuggets. Yes. Because the meat industry, JBS like Tyson and Purdue were part of that and they can try, like now that was just my little simple observation when I went to the store and I've gone like three times, I'm like, there still hasn't been any chicken nuggets there.

I'm like, but that's when people start listening that when they feel it. And because now it's, everything's a theory it's happening, you know? Oh, it's happened to the United States government. Well, I don't know what happens to data. I don't know what happens when my social security number gets out there.

They don't know. And I'm like, yeah, Mike simple. Your data equals money. So here's what you do.

The other thing is we kind of touched on it, about the client being at fault in a, in a little way. I would add a bit more percentage on that because we put out so much content, so many videos, so many guides, whatever, but the general, the general public, the person who just wants it to work, don't have time to read it.

Oh no,

no, they don't. It's not entertaining. Who wants to what you go through on LinkedIn? Just think den even YouTube.

I can tell you now

I'm like, if you want people to hear, you got to produce content that they want to hear, right. So Mike, you've got to speak to them in their language and how they're going. Cause I'm like, don't tell me people, I got time. They got time. How much time do people spend on Tik TOK and Instagram and Facebook and Snapchat?

You know what I'm saying? Like watching TV, they spend time. It's just, nobody knows all the ITN people. I see. They're like the ring

doorbell. I'm

like, I wouldn't watch that. Shoot me. Like, if you want to torture me do that. So, you know, this is where hopefully conversations like this that people can connect with.

And that's the whole thing. There needs to be the right voices. Speaking to people want to listen to, because they're not going to listen to the suit in front of the government thing going okay. We have a state of emergency with cyber security,

to be honest, they're not going to listen to people who look like it.

Does that make sense? You know, they're just not, you know, retail shop pizza, pizza, body, you know, that kind of thing. But I mean, I have a bit of a pizza belly, but but no, I mean, you know, the, you know, the type, I mean, it's weird to talk to for, you know, the type and it, and I see a lot now they give a lot of information out and it's weird because if you watch YouTube.

I wonder who they're making it for. They're making it for other it guys are the it people. So they're making that ad revenue and stuff, but it's not actually getting to the people who they really want to get

decision makers, people who are influencing companies who are leading other people, setting standards.


that's my point that when I started doing this thing called tech mentalism, I created different types of videos. If you go through my whole history is like two years or so, you'll see that the change, the shift from this is how you used to do it now, I guess. I mean, the end user doesn't care. It was like, this doesn't make sense because no, one's going to watch it.

Who's going to watch it. There's 1,000,000,001 to do absolutely videos. So I just got into the philosophy of simple simplifying things and that worked so every day I was making videos, like there were like three minute videos. The kind of ideas and it works. It worked really well. I'm probably going to go back to it.

And then I started doing these and it's been slow in the sense that people who are contacting me are actually end-users and I'm like, wait, you, haven't got time to watch my to do is video, which was, you know, seven minutes to show you how things work. But you love to listen to this stuff for hours for an hour.

Yeah. Again, like you said, it's the messaging, it's what they're hearing and what it, and it's true. It's gotta be,

yeah. You gotta draw them in and make them want to listen. Other, I mean, that's just human nature. And especially in the way our, like the whole world receives anything or buys anything or connects with anything, like, because of technology.

Sitting there and being so sterile and you know it, and people are like, no, but if you watch what people are picking, what they're choosing, I know I look at I'm like, I look at my buying habits, you know, I'm like the things that I buy that are marketed to me on here, I'm like, it's because I connect with it.

Yep. And if I, and because it speaks my language, you know, and that's, this is what it, people and it starting to happen. Like, you can see it, like you're doing, I'm like, obviously this is something going across the whole world. Like people are picking up the vibe and they're like, whoa. You know, because the next generation too is coming in and they understand technology, but they don't want to deal with cold if the real things like, no.

And like I said, this is extremely personal. Yes. It's technology. And it's a piece of metal and some copper and some like all wound together and it's an internet. It's something that we can't see, but yet it affects our lives so deeply. I mean, for the love of God, people's self worth is now dependent on things that happen.

You know,

it's, it's strange because we all use technology. Yeah. And I mean I run a company called Mac junkie, so apple stuff. And when the apple stuff stops working king, I want it now. Yes. I want it tomorrow. Yeah. Well, okay. I just told this story last week and I tell you so I had a client who had she had a PC wants to go over to Mac, went over to Mac.

We set up everything up on G suite. Cause I said it was better for you. Although I don't use Google products, but it was best for her. She used it with everything on the cloud, everything too factored, fantastic lockdown. It was locked. It, everything was working. She phones me in tears saying, I've someone just stole my laptop on the train in tears, in tears.

And I said, well firstly, calm down, relax everything. You know, trying to calm her down, go to the apple store and buy another computer. She's like, ah, geez. Do I have to? I said, yeah, just go and buy one. She bought one, she was in the apple store and I said, log in. And everything was back. Everything was back.

And she's like, she's got it. And I'm like, that's what we spent all that time and effort into because the property doesn't matter. Yes. Data matters. Yes. Right. So come on. You can now carry on working. Yes. She, and from that, because she, she sent me loads of chocolates and I posted it on my blog and stuff.

And people are like, contacting me and say, can you do this for me? Like, yeah. And that's the messaging, it's the results.

Like you said, that's the value of what we do. All

the other stuff. It doesn't matter. The, the stuff that we do behind level two level three, shouldn't matter to anybody. Yep. It's the level one.

That's the face of your company? Who you should pay more to actually, because they're the, they're the ambassadors of your company. And I've always said this support support has always been a lost leader, lost cause in companies because they don't, they're in a basement. They don't care about them. While you got to spend this much money on monitors who wants monitors?

Like, you're kidding me. Right. I worked at ITN news network and we were in the basement and there were constantly cutting funds to the department until something big happened. And then we got loads of money, like, okay, we have this happen again. We're like, we've been telling you for freaking years, you know, you just,

and that's the shift.

It's like, if you don't have you got to think foundationally, if your foundation isn't set properly, then everything else isn't going to function or build properly. So this is like, people do not, the resistance we get is you're too expensive. I don't. And I'm like, But see, that's what people communicate and like, and just like you said, this is what you want in the end.

This is what you want to function. This is the continuity you want. Like, this is the simplicity that you want.

It's it's the end result. It's

Andrew zone. You've got it fast. Like if you don't want to pay more down the road, then invest up front and then you'll pay minimal. But then when it matters, you're not going to pay as much because they get that woman.


exactly. She she's she's she's she's a coach. So she had to do calls and stuff. And if, obviously, if she had to cancel all that, because she couldn't lost all their data. Yep. Yeah. The business was gone basically. Yeah. Okay. And this is the thing, and now she's working and she's like, I can't believe what, you know, she couldn't, she seriously, couldn't fathom how we got everything back.

Everything was back, you know, and I had another client who he's he was on stage actually at the time. And he was giving a presentation and he was using Google slides. And the computer just, just gave up, just died, no power, nothing pump. And he's on stage. And he called me and I was like, you do know you can put it on your phone.

Right. Just connect, just get them to connect it. He did, did the presentation. It went really well because he kind of, it was good at him stage kind of thing. He called me and he's like, seriously, is that it? Oh yeah. So now he only uses his phone. He doesn't even take his computer because we spent the time and the end result was make sure everything is simple.

That's the end result for that guy. So again, it's, I just hope people, it guys who are listening to this, please keep it simple because yeah. It doesn't matter what you do. As I said, the level two level three, level four, whatever it is, they, it, it matters. The client doesn't care, client doesn't care. We care level one, whatever the face of the company cares and the client cares about the end result, but they don't care about that stuff.

Yeah. And what they do is significant. Like obviously we need them. And so it's a fine line for me where I'm not trying to degregate texts because I need them. I can't do what I can't write code. That's not my thing. So they're integral to what we do, but it's like, you have to be uncomfortable. You're going to have to change your skin a little bit, to be able to connect with that client.

And it's not, it shouldn't be left to a handful of people who see it, who are more sales oriented, who more people I'm like, you are perfectly capable of doing it. This is how, like, if you, I'm sorry, you're going to probably hear my

that's fine. No worry. Hear my dog walking around in a moment. So yeah, yeah.

Of like, but I mean, what you're, so if every tech, like you said, if they can just make a millimeter shift to simplify their message to the end user, like cut out all the, like, one of my texts was like, I don't. Want to, he's not on LinkedIn, so he won't see this at all or here,

go for it.

I'm talking to him.

It brilliant. Absolutely brilliant, man. You know, I'm like anything I tell him, he's like, well, we can, and he starts going off and I'm like, I don't care. I'm like, just do it, make it happen. Okay. But then he's like talking to me and I was gone because I'm going over. I really talk to my texts every week. I'm like, this is how we're going to communicate with the clients.

This is how you're. And it's my job. As an owner, I need to do that for them. I need to help them learn how to communicate simply effectively, you know, connect with the clients. And he's like, it's not my job to wipe their neck, like change their nappy and wipe your, we ran. I was like, well, I mean, technically it kind of this, okay.

Like you don't like it, but at the end of the day, that's what they want because they, it takes too much time. Everyone you just got through talking about, they have no clue how to do all that. Okay. No, she needed you to feed her, change her diaper, burp her and put her to bed. That's what she needed. And then she woke up happy.

Right? I'm like, that's what it's about, but you

know, there's this whole thing sometimes, you know, it doesn't matter what job you're in. Sometimes you just kinda like, ah, I don't want to do it today. You know, or this week, I just want to just stop. I'm just fed up with my clients. It happens to all of us. It happens to all of us in any field and this is not just it.

And certain, someone said something to me. Well, actually my best friend, she said to me You do realize that if, if things didn't go wrong, you wouldn't be in work. Right. You want to think about that? Oh yeah. So a week later I'm back in it basically, but this is the thing, like you, people get it. People do get annoyed with, oh God, do I have to do this?

Please don't do that. Do it in your own time. Don't do it in front of the client I have in the past, in the past. Right. I'm 52 now. So I, I get it. And I know I should do certain things and you can roll your eyes because you've heard the question billions of times, but the client is the, is, is the person that's asked you the first time?

That one time. Yes. So you got to be really careful as to how you act when you, when you're answering or receiving that question. Now I do have a rule. I always say, no question is a stupid question because it is, cause it's a question. Yeah. But she asked me three times, I'm calling you out. There you go.

There you go. Teaching PE like guiding them through the process of, you know, not making the same mistake again and again and again, it's like, and there, and that's what they were saying. Like there has to be some responsibility on the end user to do some comments and things and I'm like, yes, absolutely.

But that's the fight we fight every day. Yeah,

no. Yeah. They don't know. You're you're employed. You've learned this stuff. Whether you went to college university, whatever you learn this stuff to help. No, a lot of it guys learnt it because they enjoy doing it like me. Yes. Right. I've been doing it since I was like eight years old in 10.

And my father used to give me money, pocket money. We didn't have that much money. We lived in London and he said, oh, here's some money. Go and get some sweets. And I'll beat that down. The hardware stores, buying batteries and lights and making doorbells from my bedroom. That's, that's how it started learn this stuff because we enjoy it.

Right. And then we realize, oh, I can help someone with this. So let me help someone with this. Then it turns into a career. And it has done for me for 30 years basically. And it's been great and I love doing what I do. There are times that gets annoying, but you've got to kind of push it down. Yeah.

Kind of.

Yeah. Any industry attorneys, nurses, like, I mean for love, think of all the nurses, do you really think they like dealing with people, screaming at them because they've got to get, you know, do their job now. They don't know, you know? So

when you're in the front line of anything, when you're working with clients directly, you're, you're just going to get, yeah.

If you're in the back office, you'll get it with your colleagues. So you're going to get it, but pick your pick your hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, but when you, yeah, no question is a stupid question. Think about the end result, which is the main thing and you're, you're golden Mexican, you know, so you guys obviously th I mean, I saw your videos, you were doing videos.

What's your husband's name?


Hamilton. Brian. So does he get, get on the videos as well? Get him in just say hello? Yeah.

Hey Brian, come here. What's the, I started, this is thing I, I saw chain like stuff needed to happen, so I just started making videos and doing it. And I was like, whether I'm right or wrong, the market is not fair, but it is just, so if I suck, they will tell me, you know, and so far so good.

It's been positive.

I think what we are doing is the right way, right. Way of doing things. Now, I don't know how long Brian's been in it for a long time as well, I guess.

Well, a lot longer than I have. He went to school for it, like right. So 20 years. Yeah.

Hey Brian. Nice to meet you.

Yeah here.

So by the way, it's a pleasure to meet you and to let me do this. So people see you as well go for it. Okay. So I thought it was hilarious. What the message that you sent to my wife is because she was sharing me some of the frustrations that she's been having in the last month.

I have been getting some of the most prolific arrogant responses and I am just like, wow, seriously, dude. Yeah. Like here's an example. We are, I'm part of a group I'm going to lead the group nameless. But one of the it owner says, listen, I need somebody who will help me take a lead in office 365 migration.

What he has said is, I don't know how to do this. I need someone to do it for me. This is too much for me. That's what he said without saying it. Wow. Right. So everyone on there tells him how to do his job. I'm the only one that says, Hey, if you like help to take the lead with this, it's no problem. And I'm like, but the guy just told you, he didn't know how to do it.

And he needs somebody to help him. Every one of you pointed to a tool set. And then I'm just like, I like, I, I requested information about, Hey, I need help with the manufacturing site, machines have windows windows XP. Can't do anything about it. Cause their CNC devices need help medially this whole three paragraph condensation and well, they needed to be doing this Navy to do that.

I said, whoa, dude, pause. That's not the question I asked. I asked for help. I don't know, need your backstory of why they need to do this. By the way, the CNC device is a $40,000 device. Do you really think I'm going to get them to upgrade that. Now. So we got to come up with a different way to help them. And like one by one, this stupid stuff drives me completely up a tree.

So for myself, I've just started snapping back. I just like, dude, I don't care. I know your language. And I'm like, y'all hide behind monitors and have all this intense keyboard courage until you talk to somebody face to face. It's so like irritating. That's one of the reasons why like firmly, I know you got to get probably got to get going, but I firmly believe that.

No, no, no. Carry on. I mean, I was just gonna say like, th this, this is the, what we were talking about about techies know stuff, and they want to use the technology because they want to use it. But then not actually thinking about the end user, like how easy it is. I was just saying earlier about in, I mean, it's still around now, but in the early days, when I was doing installing printers, you had to use cups and things like this.

And I called them hacks because it's a pain in the butt. If it goes wrong, you'll pack that, trying to fix something. And I'm like, okay, dude, just get another printer because you're going to have less problems. The printers already five years old, just get another printer. So what you're saying completely makes sense.

Completely makes sense. Because again, you've been in it just as long as I have maybe even longer. And it's crazy how yeah, these guys just, just talk all the time and not do that talking and not doing right. And that's one of the reasons why, like that was with and forgive me. I don't remember the guy's name now.

He served under our president 44 in his it and if I got his name, I just met him one time. So this guy when I was with him in Martinsville, Virginia here in 2019, he says, one of the issues in it is we really need to get, because we're so 95% of our industry is made up of men and we really need to have a different perspective come in.

It's not that our preferred perspective's wrong, but maybe a different way of doing things and helping people. And you know, and he said, you know, maybe we're missing 50% of our world's population. Maybe it would be nice to get women involved in it. So I think there's a definite need on just bet. You know, ability to me, I'm not concerned.

It's the bedside manner part would be super helpful. Super right. That this is the w we, we touched on this as well. I don't think it's necessarily a female thing or transgender thing or a, or a gay thing. I think it's more to do with the messaging thing. And this is basically what we're trying to do. It's the messaging, trying to get the message across that.

It's, it's the it's the end result we were just talking about. This is the end result and how you talk to the client. Stop talking geek. Geek doesn't mean anything to, to the end user, right? It just doesn't. We know that stuff. We know it. We can talk about it until the cows come home, even though I get bored with it as well.

Right. It's like I've been in conversations with some techies and then. I don't even get it. Well, how's the hell is the end user going to get it? If I don't get it, or it's too complicated for me to unsend it. I have to get the encyclopedia to figure out what you're actually saying. Messaging matters, not the quota.

And I will stick to that until my dying day, because it doesn't matter if a dog can do the job, get the dog to do the job, you know, don't just get it because it's a quota. I mean, look at what's happening in the police force, especially in the U S right. They've got quotas to give out tickets. It's not a T so they can, I mean, it's a fucking mess right now.

So quite the beginning at the beginning of the month and the end of the month is horrible. There you go. There you go. I want you to hold on YouTube. It's hilarious. I wouldn't go on mute you anyway, but no, it's great to get you in and I can see it in your face that you just fed up with it as well. I think we all, yeah.

I think that, I mean, if you can see our faces, can you imagine what the client's thinking? Right. This is th this is, this is the, this is the whole thing. I mean, if you think we're so fed up with it, the client must be just live. It it's like I don't get it. Just do it. I mean, a lot of, you know, again, been in tech for so long or most of the time I just hear it.

Just, I just need it fixed. I just need to do it. How are you doing it? It's very rare. If someone says how you're doing it, it's like, it's not working. I need the printer. The network's not this. Y you know, just get it working. I just need to do my work. That's like 1% who wants to know, you know, 1% it's very rare, very, very rare.

And then when you get into it, sometimes when I get into it, they're like, okay, I'm, we're ready. Okay. All right. You know, that's the thing. Anyway. Thanks, Brian. It was good to just pull you in. Yeah. You take care. You have a great day. Yeah, you too. She is. It was great to get, you could just see it in his face.

I mean, met up already. I know. It's crazy. How, if, as I said, if we are going through this anguish and annoyance, The end result or the end user where they, you know, it's just crazy. Unbelievable.

I would encourage like, so if you are a tech and you're listening to this and you're like, I hear what you're saying, but I have no clue because it's just not natural to me.

And I'm too aggravated of dealing with the same problem, time and time again, like number one, like change the tones in your voice. I, a book that I love that's been revolutionary has been Chris boss never split the difference. So instead of, you know, asking how questions I'm trying to, it's just changing the conversation and how you're talking to people to extrapolate the information that you need, your diagnosis.

Like that's your job is to help filter through the stuff. And if you can learn how to ask specific questions, you're going to get the answers you need because the end user doesn't know everything. So that's one thing, you know, it's like learn. Communication tools. Write a script of questions that you can ask time and time again, because you know, you deal with the same staff on a regular basis.

So like a script to talk to people and say, Hey, you know my things, I want the end user, I'm going to create a script of here's what you need to preemptively. Tell the tech I have already restarted it. I have checked all of the plugs. You know, this is the error code, you know, so that you can help them. You know, like the tech can work, the end-user can work and maybe in the middle might get a little bit better, you know?

And then to like, listen, learn to listen.

You have to be, you have to be assertive as well. That's that's, that's a key thing. Yeah. Because you don't want to be walks over because of these questions, right? Nobody does. I, when I worked at ITN, I had a call. I used to work at nights, so it was from 11 o'clock at night until eight in the morning.

And I used to get calls at about seven o'clock in the morning when the, when they used to come in the, the journalists and they had no idea about tech or anything. However, this one, this one, one day, this one person, some cold and said the TV isn't working now, it was plugged in with a Scot cable. So this isn't computers, I used to deal with vision mixes and the audio mixes.

My background is music. And so the, the Scott wasn't in, but the story was, he was calling me like it's not working. And you could hear this guy banging on the TV. And I'm like, can you stop? I just lost it because I could see like, what the hell are you doing? Hey,

how are you helping? Like, no, no, don't eat it.

So it's not going to work. But I was known as the no BS guy. I just was everyone knew because that's just who I am. And if you listen to last week's episode, you'll, there's a story there. But anyway, and so I went up to see him and his end, he still hitting it. Right. And I'm like, dude, seriously. Yeah. But I need to get what, and I'm like, but if you keep hitting it, it's going to break it.

So I figured out what it was. It was so simple. The Scott was slightly out, so plugged it back in. So I basically said to him, you got a TV at home. Writing is yeah. He goes, well, if you're, if you're a video recorder, cause it was the video connects to the TV. If the video wasn't working, what would you do?

Cause I'll look at the cables. So you wouldn't hit it. No, it's my TV, duh. Seriously, it's dope. Fucking do it again. And walked away. We became good buddies because I'm the new no BS guy. And you've got to stand your ground to a certain degree. Don't get walked over, but you can't cross that line as being a complete deck.

That's the point? Right? So the thing is, so

what would you tell them? Like, how do you teach a tech who they know what they're talking about and they're dealing with because not every end user is nice. Like they can be complete jerks and just frustrated and arrogant idea with them all the time, get deescalate.

And first, if you really want to get to it, so what would you tell the tech?

Okay. I can give you another story at the same place. So someone was calling and screaming down the front. No, hello? No, nothing. Just screaming down the phone. And I was saying, you know, I, I don't understand. Can you calm down a little bit and explain it to me?

How did your back start swearing? Didn't say anything to him. I put the phone down just to, I'm sorry. I'm not going to do this. Yeah, phoned up again, happened three times. Fourth time it picked up. I'm really sorry, blah, blah. I said, no problem. I can understand it. Let's get into it. So I wasn't angry in any way because it wasn't at me.

It was at the situation. There's a different, there's a, there's a difference. Right? And it's the situation. The thing is what it, people don't understand is that you really are a doctor. You really are doing that intricate work, even though you haven't got Dr. In front of your name, doctors are doing such important work for that person at that time.

So you've got to understand how you've got to be a psychiatrist, basically a psychologist or whatever, all rolled into one, because they're only calling you when things go wrong. They're only calling. So you've got to understand that they have this massive clouds. Yes. Yeah. Right. So they're going to say anything and everything because they need to get their work done.

And the reason why I worked at that place for seven, seven years, eight years is because my remit from my boss, I was a freelancer. Was your, the firemen, get in, put the fire out and get the guys that know, you know, third line people that know how to fix this stuff to actually fix it. Your remit is to just put the fire out and make sure that the client is happy.

It matter what you do, whether you use gaffer tape, duck, tape, whatever. I mean, I, there was a time when there were live on air and I had bleached blonde hair at this time, there were live on air and you had seconds to get in to fix stuff. Now I dealt with everything, anything with electricity in it, I dealt with it, whether it was a light bulb, a printer, vision, mixers, the lighting in the studios, everything printer died, the live on air and they need to print.

So there are two pieces and they're calling crazy like, man, I don't know, like Chicago, like, okay, I'm coming. So yeah, go into the studio. And this is what, what I mean about putting the fire out. You have to do it while they're live on air. So I'm between their legs. They were sitting on between their legs.

And because I had quite big high blonde hair, you could see the hair. But the job is to put the fire out, get out, right? So again, you just have to deal with it in those situations and that, that particular job, I mean, I've done it way before then, but that particular job showed me how putting fires out, mattered more than fixing things.

Meaning the client, the end result matters again, the remit was put the fire out. The end result matters, get them happy, keep them on, keep them online. They will call. I was you know, my background was music. So when the sound guy was coming in drunk, the producer would say, dude, you got to do the sound for for the morning news to, I was doing sound for the morning news, putting a fire out.

It wasn't. Should I do it? Well, God. Oh no. That was your, that was your thing. You just had to do it. So. I think the, the point is to, to understand that whenever you get a call into it, they have a problem. They already have this issue. Don't make the issue. You fix the fix, that issue. Don't make it for you.

And a lot of it guys do this whole rolling of eyes on Jesus. So, you know, whatever, but if they get rude or they don't calm down, call it out. Yeah, absolutely out.

Yep. Yep. So I'm going to break it down for you Southern style and like where I grew up, this is what we call your town, the text. They need to put their big boy pants on any to handle their business and stop taking it personal.

Right. So gruesome and deal with it. Right. That's right. That's what

we're saying. Go with it. That's it. That's your, it's your job. If you don't like that part of it, you have to learn to fix it or find something else to fix it, or just find something else because you, you just have to do it. It's not a case of, I don't want to do this part of it.

If you're lucky enough to do the third line thing and never have to speak to clients, understand that your client is second line or first line, that's still a client that's you still have to deal with them. It's not just sitting behind a screen doing whatever it is you're doing. You still have to fix a problem for someone.

Yeah. So. Yeah, you have to deal with it. I've learned a lot there.

It's it's a bit deeper, right? So the deeper going in we're we're learning how to grow up a little bit today.

Hey awesome. Awesome chat. Really enjoyed it. Say goodbye to Brian for me, I shower. And I'm sure we'll have another conversation.

We'll definitely keep in touch. I'll be, we'll be on LinkedIn. Maybe we'll do another one another time as well. For sure. Yeah.

I might get you in, cause I'm like talking to, I do webinars for our people because I firmly believe if I'm going to be preaching this. I need to be doing something about it. So I bring in.

Teach them security, teach them basic it, staff go over it. And I'm like always having different voices to speak in, you know, and do it maybe one day I'll like, start something cool like this so that other people can connect and hear and look, and then together we can change the rural baby.

We can do absolutely do it.

I'll be happy to come in and help out any way I can. Hey, have a great day and say goodbye to buy it again.

I will. You too. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

Absolutely ciao. Bye bye.